Campfire Audio Andromeda Review: Holy Cow, This is a Dream, Awesomesauce!

Discussion in 'IEMs and Portable Gear' started by purr1n, May 13, 2016.

  1. thegunner100

    thegunner100 Hentai Master Chief

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2015
    Likes Received:
    2,461
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    NYC
    Ditch the AK70 and get a used ZX2.

    Are you using the SE or balanced output? I've heard Ken Ball say multiple times that the SE output on the A&K players sound better than the balanced.
     
  2. totoyuen

    totoyuen New

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2016
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    hong kong
    I'm on the SE output.
    I don't think I'd be getting a new dap as the ak70 is pretty new.
    Has anyone heard of the ieMatch by ifi audio?
    Does it work in my case?
     
  3. alubis

    alubis Acquaintance

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2016
    Likes Received:
    90
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Jakarta Indonesia
    Bought a used Sony ZX2 to pair with my Campfire Andromeda based on recommendation here. So far enjoying this setup very much.

    Pros: Great sound quality (more details, better bass and treble extension) compare to Samsung Galaxy S7 and Ipad Air.
    Cons: Old Android OS. The Qobuz android app is lagging and sometimes crashed. Need to clear the cache on Qobuz app regularly to avoid the lag and crash.​
     
  4. TheBarnard

    TheBarnard Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2015
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    South Florida
    Got to hear Chord Dave > Studio > IEMatch > Andromeda

    sounded nice to say the least

    Slam and force I've never heard out of IEMs before with tons of separation
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2017
  5. Bill-P

    Bill-P Level 42 Mad Wizard

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2015
    Likes Received:
    4,801
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    So, I got to try the ZX2 with stock Andro the other week while chilling with @brencho. All of this is from memory so please take with a grain of salt.

    Anyway, from my experience, the ZX2 is indeed the absolute best pairing with stock Andromeda currently. But...

    1) Hiss was ever present. I could hear it plain as day during quiet passages and sometimes with certain calm recordings. Minus points for this. Blackground was not black enough.
    2) Sound signature was indeed very neutral and calm, but there was just something... dulled about it. Like it was missing something in there to bring forth "definition". To be clear, speed was fast, and resolution was very good, but "definition" wasn't very good. Imaging was a bit hazy to my ears. In contrast, Utopia would be "oversharpened" to me.
    3) Bass was warm and punchy, but also fuzzy. Not sure how much of that was due to either one of the above (or both).
    4) Andro was dark on ZX2. Like... very dark. Airy, but dark. It definitely sounded like it was missing the last bit of treble extension. In comparison, Andro on iPhone sounds a bit too exciting, and perhaps still rolled off on top, but it didn't stand out like a sore thumb like on ZX2 where the warmer presentation probably played into it. In short: Andro + ZX2 = dark, Andro + iPhone = bright, energetic and slightly warm. The difference isn't subtle either.

    But for stock Andro, I think ZX2 is still the closest to what I'd consider absolute neutral. On the iPhone, I can't stand stock Andro at all.

    Need to try other gears and DAPs to see how Andro will play with them next.
     
  6. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    12,569
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    What's your preferred source for the Andros right now?
     
  7. brencho

    brencho Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2015
    Likes Received:
    7,978
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    LA
    I agree with Bill on a lot of points here. Definitely hiss using a balanced cable, definitely warmer than iPhone (which I enjoyed a lot at first -- was a relief -- but perhaps it's a bit overly dark now). My temporary/partial solution to the brightness on the iPhone was to use the comply foam tips, which helped a bit. But I will say that when i switched back to the silicon tips on the ZX2 it helped a bit. The foam tips were too much with the ZX2. Still, the search for the perfect source (or perfect mods) continue. And by that I mean, I'm going to enjoy the ZX2 since it's pretty damn nice sounding (just wish it didn't give up definition and punch and weren't quite as dark) and allow Bill to explore mods :)

    Would be interesting to hear how the new daps from Sony compare (wm1a or whatever), or even AK.
     
  8. Pyotr

    Pyotr Acquaintance

    Contributor
    Joined:
    May 17, 2016
    Likes Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Michigan
    I assume the sound enhancement app was disabled? I know even if you tick off all the boxes of sound enhancement features, and force quit the functions of the app, it still has a way to mess with the sound. Unnatural reverb/emphasis added the vocal range that only sticks out like a sore thumb with solo vocals, shelving of the treble, bass emphasis that lacks definition... just makes the whole thing lack a sense of grasp on the music, but still had very good resolution to not make me think there was something absolutely F'd up in the sound. Your descriptions sound almost exactly like what I experienced before I realized I had to disable the app and not just quit it, because as soon as I disabled it, it was like putting my head through a window into the music. Super clear and resolving, like the tonality of iPhone but no rolloff at extremes, digital glare, and of course lots more resolution and a great sense of space. But IDK you may just have better ears than me.

    That said, the ZX2 does hiss like a mother with Andro. I use the UE Buffer Jack to get rid of it and get a near black background (there is ever so slightly the tiniest bit of noise, but you have to work really REALLY hard to hear it). The (about) 4 ohm OI also flattens out the bass a bit more than the naked <2 ohm ZX2 output, and helps open things up a bit by tipping it up a bit more in the treble. It's hard to hear any negative differences the Buffer creates since the hiss on the ZX2 is very apparent to me, but going between the two, Buffer just gets rid of hiss and makes some subtleties more apparent b/c of lack of hiss. But of course, your results may vary, and I certainly don't have the experience you have, so take everything I say with a grain of salt :D
     
  9. brencho

    brencho Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2015
    Likes Received:
    7,978
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    LA
    Good call. How can I make sure it's actually disabled on the zx2? I can check and report back on what the settings were when bill heard mine. I thought I had disabled but just want to double check. Thanks!
     
  10. Grahad2

    Grahad2 Red eyes from too much anime

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2017
    Likes Received:
    1,162
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Singapore
    Settings > Apps

    Scroll and see if there's a Disabled next to Sound Enhancement. There'll be a markable difference in sound. With it enabled it tonally sounds a lot more like the new WM1_ series, with it disabled it's more neutral.
     
  11. brencho

    brencho Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2015
    Likes Received:
    7,978
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    LA
    dear god. i thought i had disabled sound adjustment but i hadn't gone into "apps" to fully disable it (didn't know you'd have to!). this sound adjustment is very tricky to fully disable. but now that i've done that, the difference is extreme, like mountain dew exxxtreme. @Bill-P sorry to say that the ZX-2 you heard at my place had some kind of weird sound adjustment thing cooking in the background. with it finally disabled, the overly warm/ darkness/ softness is gone, the lack of punch is gone... it's still warmer than the iphone, but not so warm/dark like you heard it here. it's way more punchy and dynamic now, regaining a lot of its magic. it also doesn't have that super weird reverby artificial soft/distant stadium thing going on either. why sony decided to make these sound adjustments at all in the first place, and so byzantine to disable is beyond me. this is f'ing great. @Grahad2 @Pyotr i owe you several beer for unlocking the ZX2 for me.
     
  12. gixxerwimp

    gixxerwimp Professional tricycle rider

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2015
    Likes Received:
    5,773
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    small island claimed by China
    Snippet from @Torq's FiiO X5 3rd Gen thread.
    I haven't heard the Andros with the ZX2 so I can't compare. I took me 10 minutes of cajoling to get the Sony sales guy to turn off all the DSP crap when I tried it with my ER4Ps a while back (OS was set to Chinese). Sounds like shit with it turned on. Way too heavy for me though.
     
  13. Pyotr

    Pyotr Acquaintance

    Contributor
    Joined:
    May 17, 2016
    Likes Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Michigan
    :headbang:
     
  14. Bill-P

    Bill-P Level 42 Mad Wizard

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2015
    Likes Received:
    4,801
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    What's good, folks?

    Yeah, I concede with @brencho. He was super enthusiastic about the ZX2 w/o enhancements + Andromeda pairing that I was like... " 'aight, cool! I'mma come over and hear it for myself!"

    Then I did just that yesterday. Squeezed myself into his house between the 1-hour-ish slot before my Saturday class (yeah, I have Saturday classes, that's why you barely see me anymore!).

    Man, was the trip worth it! The ZX2 without enhancements was a day-and-night difference for me! Same calm/neutral sound signature as before, but much cleaner and clearer sounding! Bass impact and tightness was much better as well! No more of that "burrrrrr" business, but more like "boom!"

    I also brought my AK120 (the one with dual Wolfson DACs) over for a comparison, and it was also a good fit with Andromeda. There was an added hint of warmth with the AK120 versus ZX2, so there's that for folks who would like to veer that way instead of "dead neutral" like with the ZX2 pairing. I know I'd enjoy a bit of warmth with Andromeda.

    Hiss level was comparable between the two. AK120 doesn't have hiss while music is not playing (but it hisses when music is playing), whereas ZX2 has constant hiss even when music is not playing. Going into more details, maybe AK120 is just a hair less hissy than ZX2, but source hiss (hiss inherent to the recording/music) will dominate hiss from the player in both cases, especially at higher volumes. At lower listening volumes, I guess that hiss will be noticeable, but it's not annoying me as much as with something else. My nominal listening level is between 75-80dB so please take that into account. Bottom line is: I don't notice hiss with either player when music is playing, but without music, then AK120 is dead silent whereas ZX2 hisses a little.

    This is all with stock Andromeda with Spiral Dots! While I have treble issues with Andromeda out of my iPhone, AK120 and ZX2 were perfectly fine with everything. And AK120 may actually be a bit more smoothed over (a la HD650) even, whereas ZX2 is more neutral (a la HD600). With ZX2 and AK120, I finally hear Andromeda exactly like how they are measured, which is awesome!

    Take this how you will, but Bill-P officially will take stock Andromeda (no mod!) with either AK120 or ZX2 (w/o enhancements is much better, but stock isn't bad).

    The rest of these don't really pertain to Andromeda, but...

    ZX2 has better interface and better responsiveness than AK120 to me. I tested Sony's WM1A/Z at the last CanJam and they were horribad. AK120 was better than them. Basically, AK120 is just a hair less responsive than iPod Classic to me, and ZX2 is much more responsive than everything else.

    Build-quality-wise, both are like freaking tank, but ZX2 is especially solid, whereas AK120 is a good bit lighter and less dense (it's also smaller). Japanese engineering, eh? My AK120 is the Titan version, by the way. Size-wise, I kinda prefer AK120, but ZX2 isn't that much bigger either way. I'd have loved to have a thinner music player than either one.

    Volume knob on AK120 is pretty easy to bump/knock, but I like the feel and the very fine level control (it's about 150 levels of volume control, which is way too overkill). ZX2 jumps a bit faster, and I think it's a bit less fine grain unless you slide on the screen, but I was able to hit the "right volume" effortlessly in any case. Both are far better than the 16 levels I get with my phone.

    ZX2 uses proprietary Sony connector, AK120 uses regular arse micro USB connector.

    ZX2 has full Sony support and software maturation. Hurray! AK120 is pretty much "you're on your own, bro!" with regards to support. At some point, I may have to get down on my knees and beg iRiver to give me the source code to the AK120 firmware so I can rewrite some key parts of it. The USB DAC function doesn't work with USB 3.0 ports (even when you try to put a USB 2.0 hub in between), optical in/out ports don't wanna work unless it's the right cable/right things, and hell, obtaining the manual and firmware are an exercise even with the help of Google.

    ^ those are all there for your considerations. I think AK120 can be found for just a bit cheaper than or equal to used ZX2 nowadays.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2017
  15. brencho

    brencho Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2015
    Likes Received:
    7,978
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    LA
    thanks for stopping by @Bill-P and for letting me borrow your geek out and sweet modded hd580 (which sounds great btw, just like a slightly less bassy hd650). Bill basically hit the nail on the head. here's my quick take on the two-off.

    the AK120 and ZX2 both are far warmer and fuller sounding than the iPhone. so on a spectrum of 1-10 from warm to bright, the iphone is probably close to 10 on brightness and leanness, the AK is probably like a 3 and the ZX2 is like a 4 or 5. both sound full bodied with the ZX2 being the slightly more neutral of the two. i also felt that the ZX2 had a bit more bite or impact or whatever word you want to use, whereas the AK might have been a bit more rounded around the edges. this is not a huge difference but i felt it was there nonetheless. i'm not sure if it's a wolfson vs. sabre dac thing, or maybe the ZX2 puts out more juice (and i also had a balanced cable with it so there's that). regardless of single ended or balanced i'm at roughly 20-25% max on the volume of the ZX2 and go up to 50-70% on the AK. at the end of the day, those looking for a really good dap would be very happy with either (ZX2 goes for ~500-550 used, Bill mentioned AK goes for 500 or even a bit under depending on local storage space and stuff). i'd honestly be happy with either, if i knew this going in i woulda made my choice based on availability even. the AK is just slightly warmer, slightly more rounded than the ZX2. both are on fuego. quick aside is that neither dap really was able to drive Bill's hd580. maxed volume on both, not terrible but clearly not their intended purpose.

    things i like about holding the AK in my hand are smaller size, normal micro usb or whatever plug, 2 micro-sd card slots, nice sleek build. things i dislike (that's too strong a word, this is nitpicking) are lack of balanced trrs (if that even matters), small screen, slightly less responsive UI, and uh, that's it. i don't remember if the volume can change when the screen is locked or not, but the rotating wheel feels great whenever you want to use it (really great) but i imagine it could either lead to unwanted volume changes or having to unlock the screen to adjust. ZX2 is heavier, bigger, and sadly has a proprietary connector, and its a pain in the ass to turn off the sound enhancements, which i found made the ZX2 sound horribad, dark, bouncy, sounds like being trapped in a strange dark room with echoey sounds. curious how the LH Labs dap will compare whenever they get around to releasing it (not holding my breath), whether they'll release it more seamlessly than (basically all of) their previosu releases, and how much it'll cost (do we know this yet?). but my gut tells me that the budding friendship between Campfire and LH might bear fruit.
     
  16. Grahad2

    Grahad2 Red eyes from too much anime

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2017
    Likes Received:
    1,162
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Singapore
    Just want to add that the ZX2 does not have Sabre (Sony has their own S-Master SD DAC+Amp chip ), but the Geek Out has.

    Sony's balanced for the ZX2 is also not really balanced but SE with individual grounds for each channel. I'm not sure but I doubt you'll get more power from TRRS over TRS on the Sony.

    There's also volume lock for the iriver AK120 buried somewhere in the labyrinthine menus.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2017
  17. brencho

    brencho Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2015
    Likes Received:
    7,978
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    LA
    @Grahad2 good to know amigo, thanks! yeah i honestly didn't notice a huge change using balanced or single ended on the ZX2. but i like the trrs cable fraggler made, and it doesn't have the dumb wire around the ear thing that the stock cable has, so that's what i use :)
     
  18. 3X0

    3X0 Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2016
    Likes Received:
    563
    Trophy Points:
    93
    For common reference: which exact iPhone model are you gentlemen referring to?

    FWIW when it comes to the Andromeda I feel the 7+ sounds markedly different from the 6S+, and I'm sure differences exist between other models. Probably driven largely by subtle differences in output impedance though.
     
  19. Cellist88

    Cellist88 Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,607
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    NJ
    @Bill-P the zx2 hisses a lot even with music. Even with moderately soft passages the hiss is ever present in the background. Was one of the reasons I sold it to brencho. Wm1a with the new firmware is lightning fast with no lag so I would rate the ui as pretty good now.

    The zx2 without sound adjustments sounds much better, but there is still some of that inorganic quality to the sound. Sound still sounds slightly muffled compared to wm1a and lacks a bit of clarity and transparency. Still probably one of the best pairings with the andros but I hesitate recommending to those who are sensitive to hiss. Can still hear it constanrly even with loud music like jpop.
     
  20. brencho

    brencho Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2015
    Likes Received:
    7,978
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    LA
    Well, people may differ in their sensitivities and thresholds, or maybe Bill and I are deaf, or maybe it's track dependent, but I'm with @Bill-P on this one, I don't hear much hiss when music is playing on either the AK or ZX2, nowhere near enough to bother me or distract me from what's playing in any way (but I do hear some without music playing on the ZX2).

    Also @3X0 ive only heard the Andro on the iPhone 6 and 6s, shoulda specified sorry!
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2017

Share This Page