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SET and Fostex BLH Speakers

Discussion in 'DIY' started by purr1n, Feb 10, 2016.

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  1. BioniclePhile

    BioniclePhile The Terminal Man - Friend

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    Now I'm stuck between wanting to build something with these full range drivers and getting a floorstander from Zu.
     
    BioniclePhile, Feb 19, 2016
    #21
  2. Rex Aeterna

    Rex Aeterna Friend

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    on the jbl 2235, depending where live, they can be very hard to find and expensive, even on ebay. its better to find a 2225 and recone it into a 2235 if can. i have couple 2225h's and i find them good drivers but, do plan on getting offical jbl 2235h recone kits soon with the mass ring. the 2235 and bigger brother equivilet 2245(kinda in a way but, no mass ring but, uses foam surround like 2235) are hard to come by unless you find them in older studio and commercial gear.
     
    Rex Aeterna, Feb 19, 2016
    #22
  3. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I heard the Druids or Omens? a while back. They sounded boxy, low-fi, raggy FR with overall warm signature and confusing integration between woofer and supertweeter. Nice dynamic punch, tactility, and liveliness though. Ultimately, accuracy, focus, resolution, and box resonances were too far off the mark for me.

    The Fostex kits have their own problems as well particularly with the horn and combing effects in the mid to upper bass, but mid to high end resolution, fidelity, and imaging are their good qualities (especially with the Sigma driver). The BLH type construction inherently results in a solid cabinet with massive internal bracing. I also filled unused cavities in the BK-16 kit with sand to further deaden the cabinet.

    The Madisound BK-16 build is super easy. I'll post details on the build later since Changstar is down again.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2016
    purr1n, Feb 19, 2016
    #23
  4. BioniclePhile

    BioniclePhile The Terminal Man - Friend

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    Maybe I can buy their full range drivers and try to make something out of them with a better tweeter? They've done a lot of renovating to the speakers too, maybe they've improved a bit since you last heard.
    It'd definitely be fun just to play around with the driver implimentation, unless they just aren't very good.
    And what do you mean by combing effects?
     
    BioniclePhile, Feb 19, 2016
    #24
  5. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Output from horn and driver combining at spots with different phases resulting in a frequency response with peaks and nulls like a comb.
     
    purr1n, Feb 19, 2016
    #25
  6. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Here are shots of the BK-16 Fostex kit from Madisound.
    1. Cheap!
    2. No fasteners, just wood glue.
    3. Very easy to put together.
    4. The screw to success is using clamps. A lot of clamps! I actually could have used a few more.
    Implementation Notes:
    • I filled the two cavities with sand to deaden the cabinet more / add mass.
    • Stuffing techniques varied with driver used. The higher quality FE168EZ (Sigma) driver sounded muddy and more mid-bassy in this box. I needed to include extra stuffing.
    • No stuffing behind the driver. Stuffing behind the driver does remove the shoutiness at the expense of transient response. Probably a matter of taste. I think a refractor kind of gizmo might be the ticket here.
    DSCF101710a4.jpg

    DSCF1020ff08.jpg
     
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    Last edited: Feb 20, 2016
    purr1n, Feb 20, 2016
    #26
  7. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Here is an RTA of the FE168EZ in the BK-16 box at the listening position with the internal stuffing as described in the last post. I may have overstuffed a bit and as a result brought the the midbass down a bit more than I wanted; although some reflection, I may keep it this way. The bass quality of this 6" BLH isn't exactly superb. Sometimes when bass is distorted, I like to tone it down a bit more. Voicing speakers is just as much an art as it is a science. The most problematic part of the response is the honk or shout these types of speakers are known for (the FE166en driver has this exact same effect). I am debating whether I should use an EQ circuit to correct this. Would only take a cap, coil, and resistor. Overall I am surprised how compatible the FE166en and FE168EZ are, at least in this room. Makes sense though because the TS parameters for the drivers are almost the same except that the Sigma driver has smaller VAS and surface area.

    There is a treble spike at 7kHz, but it doesn't come off as noticeable at all. In other words, I know @Hands would fine it OK. There is slight mid-treble suckout, but not too bad in the scheme of things. Since this is a listening position measurement, we don't want to see flat. The B&K target is more along the lines we want to see. Also, note the comb filtering from 50 to 250Hz, a side effect of the backwave of the horn and the frontwave of the driver.

    RTA of FE168EZ in the BK-16 box at Listening Position
    FE168inBK-16.png
     
    purr1n, Feb 20, 2016
    #27
  8. OJneg

    OJneg The Most Insufferable

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    It seems to me that the Sigma stuff has even more screwy FR. Can you show us on-axis @ 1m?
     
    OJneg, Feb 20, 2016
    #28
  9. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Here is an RTA of the same box augmented with a Hsu STF series subwoofer. (The cheaper smaller STF series are better for music than the VTF. I've owned VTF subs before.) I purely utilized the subwoofer for reinforcement of the sub and low bass and intentionally made absolutely no attempt to fill in the the upper part of the roll-off. From experience, I know that trying to fill that gap in will result in craptastic sound.

    I've eschewed using the DX2496 as a subwoofer processor (with EQ) this time around and instead directly fed the speaker level inputs of the Hsu from the Eddie Current Studio amp. Honestly I am surprised of the integration. So much in fact that I may push my subwoofer project to lower priority. The dip at 70Hz is a room null and cannot be corrected with one subwoofer.

    I made some slight adjustments to the speakers to correct the 10kHz dip.

    RTA of FE168EZ in the BK-16 Box with Hsu STF Subwoofer at Listening Position
    FE168inBK-16sub.png
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2016
    purr1n, Feb 20, 2016
    #29
  10. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Will do. But yes, the FE168EZ FR is less even.
     
    purr1n, Feb 20, 2016
    #30
  11. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    I'd like to recommend SVS as a terrific candidate for sub duties. They even have discounts if you buy two of their subs and pay for shipping back if you don't like them. I'm having a hard time believing that many people actually ship them back, because for the price they kick ass.

    I'm using a SB-2000 with my KEF LS50ies and this is what I get pre-correction.

    [​IMG]
     
    Hrodulf, Feb 21, 2016
    #31
  12. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex SBAF's Imelda Marcos

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    Marv: you are also missing L clamps. I have a few from my car audio days.

    I'm tempted to get the box kit for my weird modded decware FE166.
     
    zerodeefex, Feb 21, 2016
    #32
  13. OJneg

    OJneg The Most Insufferable

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    Looks pretty damn good now except for that Grado shout. Perhaps some phase plug or driver treatment magic could cure it?
     
    OJneg, Feb 21, 2016
    #33
  14. batriq

    batriq Probably has made you smarter

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    The original Omens sounded like this to me too (although I wouldn't have been able to articulate that so well). I ended up getting the Unions, which are now discontinued in favor of the Soul. They fix the staging, focus and detail problems with the Omen while maintaining the liveliness, and I found they have even more punch.

    Zu has Omen MKII now, however I haven't heard them. The higher-end Omen Def MKII look intriguing too, especially for the price.
     
    batriq, Feb 21, 2016
    #34
  15. BioniclePhile

    BioniclePhile The Terminal Man - Friend

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    That's what I was looking at, the Def MkII, but I'd hate em to end up sounding weird. The little DIY fostex kits seem really cool, but I have no idea what sound signature I'm going for.
    Plus, I need to be out of college and have a place to live before I go for speakers.
     
    BioniclePhile, Feb 21, 2016
    #35
  16. batriq

    batriq Probably has made you smarter

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    The first set of floor-standing speakers I owned are OB's that I built based on: http://www.quarter-wave.com/OBs/OB_Design.pdf
    I really enjoyed these but they didn't fit well in our house when we moved (mine were fugly), and I was feeling some of their limitations especially in terms of resolution.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is I would definitely go the BK-16 DYI route first. And pair them with a sub like Marv recommends. I have the Zu's paired with a REL B3.
     
    batriq, Feb 22, 2016
    #36
  17. jacal01

    jacal01 Friend

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    I use the a-gd M7 DAC in my Studio setup. As of now I am especially enjoying a large open soundstage with spot-on spatial cues, which I attribute to both the M7's sufficient output current for the Studio input tx, and the short length LVDS I2S digital signal connection between the M7 and my transport. So I'm not feeling a whole lot of compulsion to swap in the Yggdrasil, megaburrito filter notwithstanding. Perhaps if/when EC comes up with an interconnecting output gain buffer stage for it.


    I considered picking up a REL subwoofer back in the day when they were still reasonably priced, and also the UK company BKE (e.g. XLS 200) who used to make the REL subs before they starting farming them out to China. I finally settled on a Rythmik Audio sub ( F12G-SE) out of Austin because of their rapid response active driver coil servo technology, but an order backlog of their A370 component amp got me second guessing whether I wanted or needed an active subwoofer in my small apartment speaker setup, so I ended up cancelling the order.

    So my speakers which are basically satellites masquerading as mains have a bass roll off at ~80-90 Hz, which is fine for active puttering around my apartment, especially when I could augment them by listening thru my open back LCD-2s for bass frequency response during serious listening sessions. Hence my initial disappointment when my Studio didn't seem to work well with most headphones. I really wanted full range frequency response out of my high end Studio for my critical/immersive listening. Happily I'm getting that now with my headphones.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2016
    jacal01, Feb 22, 2016
    #37
  18. mtoc

    mtoc SBAF's Resident Shit-Stirrer

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    Maybe the VTF is better than the STF with movies?
     
    mtoc, Feb 26, 2016
    #38
  19. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    For HT, I would go VTF.
     
    purr1n, Feb 26, 2016
    #39
  20. mtoc

    mtoc SBAF's Resident Shit-Stirrer

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    Hi Marv, how do you think about the transmission-line speakers?
     
    mtoc, Feb 29, 2016
    #40
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