DAP discussion thread

Discussion in 'IEMs and Portable Gear' started by zerodeefex, Oct 8, 2015.

  1. TjH

    TjH New

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    Aside from the used market: what's the cheapest Amp/DAC that can drive full sized orthos?

    I'm thinking of the xd-05 (IF it works with my phone that is).

    OR: xdp-100r/dp-x1 are also choices for me.

    Also: what if i WERE in the market for the $1000+ ones, in case i can find a good deal on them, may as well shop there as well.

    I prefer DAPs than DAC/Amps cuz android's USB audio is VERY iffy at best. I've owned 12 android phones and NONE have worked properly with portable Amp/DACs i've had in the past.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2017
  2. aufmerksam

    aufmerksam Friend

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    I honestly have no idea. The portable amp/dac market is choked with options, some clones, some garbage, some decent, some great. Your best option is to check the power and sensitivity specs from MrSpeakers or InnerFidelity, and use that as a guide when looking at possible solutions. Further complicating this is the fact that listed specs for many manufacturers are "idealized," so I am dubious in most cases.

    I have not heard any xDuoo products, so I cannot comment on them directly. I will say I think their name is stupid, and am generally skeptical about products with that many options/features, but those are my personal biases going in and it might sound fantastic. I recommended the v2+ since there is a general consensus among users that it is well implemented and impressively powerful for its size, and I have heard it personally. Also, people have been selling it cheap (relative to MSRP) because a shinier version came out and/or they didn't like the way the case finally came out (I guess). Good deals to be had.

    As to phone compatibility, as long as the amp/dac supports USB audio (both xd-05 and gov2+ do) and your phone runs marshmallow or later (the 6p and G6 do), then you are fine. Monoprice sells a great little 6 inch usb-c to usb mini-b cable that works great in this application.

    Don't know enough about this product either. Others have commented at length about it in this thread, and something prevented me from giving it a try several months ago ... I just can't remember what.
     
  3. TjH

    TjH New

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    I couldn't get GOV2+ (demo unit i tried out) to play well with any of my phones :(. MY phone kept trying to charge the GOV2 and lost ALL of it's battery in about 2 hours. What exactly do i use for a transport for the GOV2+?

    Honestly idc about budget anymore, it's very clear to me that TO ME, aeon deserves a really good DAC/Amp . That being said, any reasonably priced DAP that can drive these? (Sony isn't an option cuz a. after my first few sony digital walkmans i don't trust them anymore..UGH that horrid itunes rip off i had to use, it wudn't even support mp3's. and b. sony is NOT reasonably priced, to me). Keeping in mind that buying i feel heapdhones should occupy a major portion of the total budget of the music system.
    ETA: From looking around "Qp-1r" sounds promising.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2017
  4. MrTurtle

    MrTurtle Facebook Friend

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    I have a Samsung Note 3 (Zerolemon battery) -> G0720 -> Leck 4627BRZ chain. Mainly use it for the office, but I'm starting to tire of the bulk and weight, so I'm thinking of getting a DAP that will provide a great line out to the Leck. Does anyone have any good recommendations for one that meets the following criteria:
    • A good DAC -> line out implementation
    • Reasonable battery life (The GO720 can really do a number on even the Zerolemon)
    • SD slot
    • Not-awful UI (I can be rather tolerant of problems in this area though)
    I've considered the Shanling M1, AK Jr, Fiio X3 or X5 (various gens), and Lotoo Paw 5000 - all of these don't quite fit the bill, though. Used examples of these can be found easily for USD100-150 where I am, but I don't mind going up to 250 moolahs if there's really something better out there.

    Thanks in advance for any advice!
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2017
  5. Grahad2

    Grahad2 Red eyes from too much anime

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    ZX100?
     
  6. hawaiiancerveza

    hawaiiancerveza Friend

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    WHere are they being sold for cheap? On LH the standard version is being sold for $499.
     
  7. TomHP

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    Just received my AK70 with Ryuzoh mod. First measurements are very very promising.

    Compared to original AK70
    • OI: from 3.5 to 0.4 (SE, not measured balanced yet)
    • THD: way more linear, for reasonable listening levels (1mW into 16 Ohm) only one 2nd order component at -90dBV. The original has a nasty 3rd order that's higher than the 2nd and a 4th, 5th etc... Still clips around roughly -6dBV, but that would be utterly deafening with IEMs.
    • THD is also ruler flat as a function of frequency. The original has a rising THD vs. freq.
    • Noise floor hasn't changed much, but it's already quiet enough for me even with very sensitive IEMs.
    • Subjectively: better separation, wider (still need to measure crosstalk), much tighter bass and strong centre image. Very good first impressions, clearly in another league now than stock.
    Only negative and it's not a small one: the original AK70 was already rather susceptible to RF interference from the WiFi but that's gotten even worse. I use a DAP mostly for offline listening, but still. The occasional Tidal session was nice. I'll check with modder Ryuzoh tomorrow and post some measurements.
     
  8. aufmerksam

    aufmerksam Friend

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    Ah, sorry! They have been selling used cheap. I don't know if LH Labs even sells the normal GO V2+ anymore, I think you can only get the PRO version new from LH, and that appears to be on pre-order. I cannot claim to ever understand their marketing or storefront strategies, but it seemed like for several months everyone was selling their used GOV2+ for about $300.
     
  9. aufmerksam

    aufmerksam Friend

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    I used mine with a nexus 6p until I got a pixel xl, and now I use it with that. My usb-c android phones have always defaulted to audio mode when I hook up a dac or dac/amp; for a while you had to go into developer settings to override that default. Also, it sounds like you may have plugged into the wrong port on the V2+. It cannot charge from the "USB Input" port; there is a separate "Charge" port. I know none of this specifically helps you in the moment, just don't want undue confusion.

    As for Sony's DAPs, I will note that the interface is nothing like it was back in the ATRAC days. They gave up the poorly implemented itunes rip off and mandatory conversion to their proprietary codec. Its all just drag and drop now, and its pretty solid.
     
  10. TjH

    TjH New

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    Oh sweet!

    I'll try the LHLABs again in a few mths when i get the time. In the meanwhile I got a good deal on a used Oppo HA2 ($200) so nabbed it. It's pretty good tbh. The one thing Phone+DAC/Amp has over the DAP is that with the former I can use my android watch to change tracks etc. Which is nice. OTOH, more phone usage=battery dying faster...and USB Audio with android is still abit iffy (poweramp finally got a USB Audio implementation that does >44.1/16 .. YAY!).

    BTW: can anyone compare GOV2+ to the HA2/HA2se ? I haven't heard the GOV2+ for long enough to form an opinion.
     
  11. Mshenay

    Mshenay Barred from loaner program. DON'T SEND ME GEAR.

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    I'd grab an M2S , I'm actually wrapping up my thoughts on it now and compared to the N3 I'm really impressed with how well it sounds by it self using just the onBoard amp. The Cayin N3's digital filters allowed you to dial in a more sterile FR which immediately scaled with the line out, but wasn't as impressive as the M2S when using the built in amp, the M2S on the other hand doesn't have any digital filters, and offers a more balanced some what natural sound, the down side is the Line Out doesn't scale as easily. Running it into a Vali 1 really softened the sound, yea there was a more precise 3D sense of space but the tonality wasn't right. Only my Ember II and Pico Power netted me improvements across the board without compromises. It's also got an SD Slot and the battery life is about ever 2 days, though if you want less bulk you might appreciate that the M2s can be operated entirely with one hand.

    While not having heard the Leck 4627BRZ, I'd hope it actually scales the M2S line out when you need the extra power.

    Non the less, that said the following are my thoughts on the M2S*

    [​IMG]

    Overall, I'm very impressed with the on board amp! Sound is fairly natural, with only a little glare alongside a touch of warmth.

    Bass Quality
    The M2s isn't lacking I felt at times It's presentation was a little too lean, impact was wonderful, drums had power and guitars and cello's had good clean body. And while It was able to resolve changes in vibrato present during decay and quicker transients, having more contrast between the attack and decay often it would omit some of the more nuanced transients that the 601 resolves

    Mid-Range Purity
    Though infrequent there were times the M2s over emphasized some ringing in addition to some times providing marginally simpler transient information. However it was never too thick or too slow, really it provided a consistently natural warmth. Free some both excessive decay and over emphasized attack,

    Highs
    The M2S has a little more energy up top compared to the 601, while this helps bring emphasis to macro details and ambient noise, with brighter headphones it can dull percussion a little. Though with darker cans adds a welcome sense of liveliness!

    Imaging
    More differences here than technicalities, the M2S was more spacious or 3D in comparison to the very intimate 601. Though the sense of space did contribute to a slightly less cohesive sound stage in comparison.

    Speed
    There was a better sense of time and pace with the M2s, the hm601 can be too slow and romantic at times. Though interestingly, while the M2S had better macro dynamics, the 601 did better with micro dynamics.

    Resolve
    I still feel my little HM 601 does best with both micro dynamics and details. It's not world or game changing, but I'm always impressed with how much it resolves. The M2s is sufficient though, it has a minimal amount of macro detail emphasis, enough to make things really exciting for less experienced ears. Which in this price bracket is something worth bringing to the table! Other wise, it does simplify music a little. Pushing a little more attack, over some of the nuance in the decay. Frankly, I use it on Campus/mid-lecture with my Superlux HD 668B so Micro Details and dynamics aren't my first focus...

    UI/Battery Life
    I like rock box, the battery lasts me like a month vs 3 days with the M2S. Additionally, Rock Box has a para metric EQ that I enjoy, other wise ignoring Rock Box the native UI of the M2S is good, doesn't stutter, super easy to navigate AND I can use it entirely with ONE hand!!! Something I wish I could say more often

    Headphone Out
    I was really impressed with how clean the onBoard amp of the M2s was. Though I hear it's output impedance is a bit to high for some of the more sensitive IEMS, either way the lack of digital filters I feel resulted in a more consistent output across devices. With the N3 I was always fumbling with the filters to see which worked best. Where as the M2S just sounds good with each headphone I have, there are differences between each but the DAP doesn't add to any of their faults, I suppose it doesn't compensate for them as strongly as the N3 Can/Could, but ultimately I enjoyed a constantly better sounding and simpler output from the M2S. The HM601 sounds better SOME times and is nosier all of the time

    Line Out
    The M2S's down side is the line out... when fed into my Vali 1 while imaging and resolve improved, tonality and impact did not. Feeding the M2S into other entry level amps is just a game of compromises. Though feeding it into my Ember II or my Pico Power netted some actual across the board improvements over the onBoard amp. On the other hand, the N3's digital filters allowed for a quicker super detailed but ultimately sterile and fake sounding output to be fed into a warmer entry level amp. Which ultimately netted improvements for the system as a whole, where as the M2S warmer more balanced output doesn't appreciate as much of the color that some entry level amps impart. An interestingly enough, the output of my HM601 was improved when fed into the Vali 1!! Retaining both it's impact and excellent dynamics/detail, in fact I'm always very impressed with how well the 601 scales. However you know that it's not endless and it'll NEVER compare to more resolving dac regardless of what you amp it with. It's chained to Low/Mid-Fi Purgatory at best...

    Function
    I like the N3 for how well it plays with EVERYTHING you own, and on the flip side I like the M2s for how well it works by it self. The M2S is simpler, I feel it's more than enough with it's on board headphone amp. Especially for a headphone user, it'll work with a variety of digital source, and has Blu Tooth! How ever, the N3 is more flexible in the end, if you want to get a more demanding pair of headphones and purchase an amp to power them your better off with the N3. If you intend to stick with super efficient headphones for a while and don't need any extra power than the M2S is more ideal I think.

    An I frankly use it on Campus/mid-lecture with my Superlux HD 668B so Micro Details and dynamics aren't my first focus... the one handed operation and very balanced tonal presentation are the real winners with the M2S in my book. While I still enjoy the HM 601 more, it's kinda of hassle to use/carry around. One handing it with the M2S is more enjoyable than trying to arrange the 601 into my life these days, and if I really want to lug around a portable system that requires both my hands and attention to operate, I might as well bring my 901 rig with me. Other wise, I'm ecstatic to be able to take notes, and change from Miles Davis to Dave Brubeck at the same time.
    *Thanks to musictech for the demo also they have a giveaway going for the M2S so check that out
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
  12. Mimouille

    Mimouille Facebook Friend

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    Nice, I wonder how it compared to the new Ak70 MKII...
     
  13. TomHP

    TomHP Facebook Friend

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    Yeah... Good question.

    Main thing holding back this player is the amp stage though. MKII is still stating similar output impedance (which is grossly under estimated by AK).

    I'll share some measurements of the modded one tomorrow vs. original ak70. It's night and day really. Sounds awesome. Very happy with it.

    I'm sure one day soon I'll be able to compare to MKII.
     
  14. Jerda

    Jerda New

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    Me too, I wonder about AK70mkII sound and comparing it to the dx200, maybe one day I will find an used one.
    BTW some suggest about a dap to use with he400i? Budget ~400€ and absolutely needing Tidal
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2017
  15. TomHP

    TomHP Facebook Friend

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    As promised, some comparison measurements between my original AK70 and my new modded AK70. Modding done by Ryuzoh (http://m-s-tech.jp/)

    Measurement conditions:
    • APx525
    • 16 Ohm load --> seemed most appropriate for IEMs, which is what most people will use with these low power DAPs
    • 1mW (unless stated otherwise)--> that equates to 126mV for a 16Ohm load.
      This is quite high actually. E.g. Shure SE846 and Katana only needs roughly 15 mV to achieve 94 dB at 1kHz. 126mV is 18 dB louder than that...
    • I also measured output impedance. Although otherwise stated by AK, the original AK70 has 3.4 Ohm OI on the SE output. The modded has less than 0.4 Ohm :)

    1 kHz FFT - 1 mW 16 Ohm
    Original
    [​IMG]

    Mod
    [​IMG]

    I could end the story here basically :). Way less THD with the mod. Original has quite a lot of 3rd, 5th etc order harmonics. At 1mW the mod only shows 2nd order at -95dB and the 3rd order is just poking out of the noise floor.

    The original also shows a rising THD vs. Frequency. Based on what I've seen with other designs, I understand this has to do with the feedback loop running out of steam for higher frequencies (I'm sure an EE can confirm/smack me for telling falsehoods).


    1 kHz FFT - 10 mW 16 Ohm
    Original
    [​IMG]

    Mod
    [​IMG]

    Gets worse for both, but at this point the original is a mess. The mod is also starting to show 3rd order at a higher level, but still very low down, especially considering the load. I don't include the measurements here, but both are basically really running out of steam around 30mW into a 16 Ohm.

    IMD distortion products. - 60 Hz and 7 kHz 4:1 ratio - 1mW signal power
    Original
    [​IMG]

    Mod
    [​IMG]

    Similar story here, much lower IMD sidebands around the 7 kHz for the mod.

    Overall, I'm honestly quite surprised to see how much this player has improved. I'm still asking to get a full breakdown of what he has done exactly, but safe to say the guy knows what he's doing. Even with the mod this player is not capable of driving hard to drive headphones very well, but for sensitive IEMs, it's pretty classy now :)
     
  16. Mshenay

    Mshenay Barred from loaner program. DON'T SEND ME GEAR.

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    Took the time to compare my Geek Out v2+ SE out directly again'st the Shanling M2s Line Out into my Pico Power, all in all, I was pretty impressed how well the M2S scaled with the Pico Power. The SE Output of that combo was comparable with the SE Output on Geek Out v2+ with my lowly little HD 668B

    The M2S/PicoPwr combo had better imaging, presenting a more defined and more cohesive image, additionally the mid range had a fuller more natural quality in contrast to the some what leaner GO V2+. Where as the GO V2+ had more resolve, better defined micro details and dynamics, in addition to clearer more complex transient response. That and the M2S has a mild top end haze, an excessive "zzzzzz" quality to high hats that can mask some percussive energy, the GO V2+ on green filter doesn't have this issue.

    Still, swapping into my balanced Nhoord Red V1 and using the GO V2+ balanced out did ultimately out perform the M2S Pico combo,
     
  17. gixxerwimp

    gixxerwimp Professional tricycle rider

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    If you're going to go the phone>DAC-amp route, I highly recommend UAPP. It works with most devices and guarantees "bit perfect" output to the DAC, whereas I'm not sure that Poweramp bypasses the Android sample rate fuckery before outputting to USB. Haven't used Poweramp for a while, but there was a haze/veil in comparison to UAPP. Free trial version to check if it works before you buy. I'm used to the UI now and prefer it to Poweramp.

    As for affordable DAC-amps with enough power for planars, you should be able to pick up a used iFi micro iDSD "silver" for less than $300 since the "Black" version came out. I used it with my ZMF Blackwoods and felt no lack for power and control. Not really "mobile", but definitely "portable". Runs off it's own battery so the phone only has to power the player app.
     
  18. Dash

    Dash Friend

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    I am once again moving away from streaming capable daps. We will boondock camp a lot this upcoming year. Battery life will be paramount moving forward. With that being said, is the ZX100 worth $340 with the ZX300 on the horizon?

    Update: I found an open box ZX100 at Beach Camera for $250 shipped and no tax. I am going to give it a go. I remember @Marvey commenting about the little f2f difference between the ZX100 and ZX2.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2017
  19. MrTurtle

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    After listening to everyone's advice here and searching for impressions, I decided to stop being an el cheapo for once and pony up for a used ZX100.

    TOTALLY WORTH IT.

    I don't know what sorcery Sony uses in the ZX100's DA conversion, but it's one of the most organic, smooth-sounding portable implementations I've heard in my limited experience. Treble digititus is nowhere near as fatiguing as it used to be on the UD120 and GO720 that did DAC duty before it. Bass and lower midrange is pleasing in a sort of rounded way, for lack of a better term. I suspect some may hear the ZX100 as too smoothed over because of the tonality, but it's so ridiculously easy and comfortable to listen to. And this hardly means it's lacking in detail - Led Zep's squeaking drum pedal and the Czech Philharmonic's odd background creaking in their Ghibli renditions are easily picked out.

    On its own, it does seem to lack power a little. Line out into the Leck solves that - tons of grip and ballz on my Tenores and reshelled BA200s. Combo also performs admirably with HD600, though TH-X00 could use a leaner source.

    My work stack is settled for a long time to come, and I'll happily recommend the ZX100 to anyone considering it. Thanks for all the advice, everyone!
     
  20. Mimouille

    Mimouille Facebook Friend

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    This is Sony's touch, ultra smooth and organic. The WM1 series are similar, with a bit more power. That is what it brings to create your own DAC chip.
     

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