Massdrop x HIFIMAN HE4XX Measurements and Impressions

Will I be able to drive them from a dap with a power of 1.9Vrms with 2.7V peak? And how a sabre chip matches these?

 

After reading through this thread, I was wondering if there is any consensus on the HEX V2, specifically on sound qualities and for what kind of listener / music genres it might be generally recommended for? How would it compare to the 4XX? I haven't found out much about the HEX V2 searching SBAF.

 

I don't think so. In Single-ended configuration, they're actually somewhat starved for gain/power even on my Jotunheim, so I don't think a DAP can handle these very well. You definitely need an amp for this headphone.

I quite liked HEX when I got to check it out. I'm not sure what changed in the HEX v2, but to my ears, it sounded much the same as v1. Maybe... slightly better somewhere else? But I couldn't tell. Thing is... when you take price into account, HE-4XX is very hard to beat.

And if you're willing to try your hands at modifying them (note that modifying the HE-4XX is easier than doing the same thing to... say, T50RP), I think their performance either rivals or surpass HEX v2 in its stock configuration.

Ultimately, it comes down to: price (oops, sorry, I wrote that twice). This + decent pair of ear pads + amplifier altogether still cost less than a used HEX v2. Heck, if you factor Magni 3 as the amplifier, then: HE4XX + new ear pads + Magni 3 + Modi Multibit < HEX v2 used. We're at a time where this is a thing now.

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Just some small update for those who were wondering if I did any further "experimentation" with this headphone. Here's the best I have so far: ZMF's lambskin ear pads:

Versus Stock configuration (w/ Focus Pads A):
Subjectively, to me, ZMF ear pads sound more nuanced/sharp/detailed/better timbre with strings and vocals than stock Focus Pads A, and the treble is a bit more relaxed


Versus the last mod I published (w/ Dekoni Beyer DT ear pads):
Equally relaxed, a bit better nuanced/sharp, less forward for some reason (maybe less 500Hz - 1KHz?), less warm, more neutral, but not grating.


Versus my HD580, the way I have it tuned now (with stock ear pads, btw):
Subjectively, the 580 is a bit warmer (almost unnoticeable), and equally with better timbre/nuance in the treble. Also better treble smoothness. That 10KHz peak kinda stands out to me sometimes as a single "sharp" peak with certain tracks that I don't notice with HD580, but it's not sibilant or annoying. It's just that I'm too used to HD580. Both are very close to one another in sound. HE-4XX has better bass.


So yeah, honestly... considering the price point, I'd say... these are just too awesome for what you can "extract" out of them. Stock is "good-ish" but once you start rolling ear pads and apply HE-6 type mods to them, they also start to shine. This + a Magni 3/Modi Multi stack is probably the best bang for your buck right now, I think.

P.S.: I haven't posted measurements for anything because I think sometimes measurements "lie." But I'm confident enough about the performance of the HE-4XX to post these graphs. They're that good to me.

 

HE-4xx Impressions:
Source: AES Card > Gungnir Multibit > Eddie Current ZDS or Samsung Galaxy S7

Sound (Positive)

• Bass not too up front, but extends nicely and has a "bouncing" kinda tempo to it, but doesn't punch and slam like higher up Hifimen
• Bass flows seamlessly into mids
  
• Mids are mostly flat, clear, and nonproblemtatic
• Maintains composure at higher volumes
• Very fast, head-bopping toe-tapping, kind of presentation. Just stop thinking and enjoy the music kind of phone.

Sound (Negative)

• There's a little dip in the upper part of the mids that take a bit of life out of higher vocals, guitar crunch...etc (this is a common complaint for me). Also muffled compared to good dynamic cans
• Treble has sparkle but is very uneven. The random wrong note or drum hit can stand out way too much
• General fatigue can set in over time (on par modded HD800), and overall sounds tizzy up top
• Not the last word detail retrieval, dynamics (high/low sounds, just general liveliness) are lacking
• Soundstage is pretty narrow, kindof a hard left/right feeling instead of center image.

Miscellaneous

• Matte finish is sexy, love it. I would do terrible things for a refreshed HE-500 or HE-6 in this (or just those relaunched in general....)
• Focus-A sound a bit bassier, but also boomier, and a little more intimate than regular Focus pads. I prefer regular Focus personally, but it's not make or break. I'm also a person who doesn't find HD800 thin so YMMV.
• Cable is only 4ft and thick, with a crazy long Y split. I wouldn't want to use portably, despite massdrop's marketing this is not an on-the-go headphone and would like to see a longer cable for home.
• Not terribly hard to drive but needs a bit more on the knob than 650/800, my Galaxy S7 needs ~90% volume. Sounds good out of phone tho.

Overall fantastic for the price, but not a giant killer. Less of a V-shape, and less (but still) problematic treble than the original blue wonder (going off memory from 3 years ago). I'd still take HE-500 over it with appropriate amp, have not heard the 400i or S to compare. HD600/650 is "better" and not too much more expensive, but very different presentations. HE-4xx better out of very modest source IMO, making this an excellent gift for the audio-curious or just a good budget open back.

 

Bill do you mean the Dekoni Beyer DT sheepskins? or the Velour? Or the fenestrated?

Looking at the curves, I'm inclined to go with the Dekoni pads because I prefer a warmer sound sound signature. Also, which ZMF pad are you recommending? The Ori?

 

I’ve been following this thread since the beginning and am really excited to receive these in December.

Having noticed (but missed) the last ZMF pad drop on Massdrop, I noticed that Zack introduced perforated versions (like the ones on his new open back Auture.) I’m curious how these perforated lambskin Ori pads will perform on the 4XXs (with or without grill mod.)

 

Has anyone tried (or plan to try) it on balanced mode? I'd be curious to see how it fair differently SE vs Balanced on a Jot for example.

 

Jot SE vs balanced is already different sounding. Balanced has slightly higher gain and more power delivery. Though with Jot, the difference going to balanced isn't as pronounced as some other amps where SE is literally just one half of the balanced circuitry.

 

Bill, when you posted the measurements using the ZMF (Ori?) lambskin pads, were they also including mods as well or just the ZMF pads on stock cans?

I’m also assuming that you didn’t remove the dust screen from the pads, correct? Either way, what configuration (in terms of mods) would you suggest with the ZMFs in particular?

 

Oops, sorry, for some reason, I neglected to see these posts earlier. Sorry, guys!

I used the regular Beyer DT leather pads. Easiest fix ever for a headphone, I'd say.

I'm not sure perforated pads are a good idea with these... given that there is a certain spot in the treble (I'm guessing 7-8KHz peak?) that could potentially be spotlighted with anything too crazy. But... you'll have to experiment and let us know!

Just the pads on stock cans, and yes, I didn't remove the dust screen. I essentially just slapped the pads on. No shelf liner or anything else either.

With the ZMF pads, I'd say... if you are crazy enough, that you should cut away the dust filter in the front, place the shelf-liner on top, then remove the filter cloth in the grills in the back. That should probably make it very even in the FR.

I personally prefer a slightly warmer sound than neutral, so I'm okay with leaving at least the front filter on.

 

Thanks for the responses, Bill. Well considering that I sold my set of 6XXs for being to dark and still enjoy my modded Q701s, I'm inclined to believe that my best bet will be the ZMF non-perf pads in conjunction with just the grill mod alone (ditching both pad and grill screens for good measure.) Already have my paper organizer mesh ready for cutting. My ultimate goal is to help even out the treble, get a decent amount of punch, help eek out a little more microdetail, and increase the soundstage/airiness a tad.

I really liked the sound signature of the 400i so as long as I don't make these any darker than say the Elears (which are as dark as I've enjoyed) then I should be pretty happy.

 

I'm a little late to the party but I have a Jotunheim and have used the my 4XX balanced off of it on a number of occasions - the difference, to my ears, is nothing to really write home about but is about what you'd expect (or at least that I have experienced) from other mid-fi headphones.

Still, with VE making balanced cables at as low as 20 bucks (and north of that if you want proper sleeves/better wires etc) there really is no reason to stick with single ended on a balanced amplifier, in my opinion.

I haven't had a huge amount of free time to listen to the headphones just yet (despite getting my unit from Massdrop for testing months ago, shame on me) but I agree with PoochZag's assessment for the most part, I have had extensive time with most of Hifiman's newer lower to mid tier headphones.*

The bass is absolutely their better feature whilst the highs are slightly lacklustre. I'm fairly treble sensitive and have had no real issue with fatigue however, which I did have with my 400i years ago which is good but they're still a little tizzy as said and not the most pleasant experience. The mids are what you'd expect from a pair of Hifiman headphones (have not tried the HE-1000 and their older mid tier line), no real complaints from me there.

They are much more alike the 400S than the 400i to my ears which is definitely a good thing - they also seem to scale fairly well which I enjoy, the 400S were very geared toward portable/non-amplified which is not something I personally need. The fit is comfortable enough, the finish is very nice, the cable is malleable and never gets in the way like the HORRIBLE (now discontinued, I believe?) stock cable the 400S/i used to come with.

Mine have regular Focus pads and no A version so I cannot comment there but I tend to dislike thin/drier sounding headphones (eg. HD800, HE-560s, etc) and I like them with the Focus so there's that. I've also tried Brainwavz Hybrids, Kennerton (white) leather pads and ZMF sheep skins on them - the latter two make them sound bassier for obvious reasons, what you'd expect from full leather pads; the Hybrids are my favourites as they are something in between, they're also more comfortable than the Focus pads in my opinion. Bottom line, I don't think full leather pads are very suitable for the 4XX and perforations definitely help.

*Bought the 400i when they first came out, have since sold them because I never did like them very much; had the 400S for a couple years and liked them a lot, sold them because I had no use for them any more; still own my 560s which my wife uses.

 

Finishing up my thoughts of these tonight, but what did you scale it with if I may ask?

I honestly wasn't impressed with how it scaled,

When I moved from my Shanling M2s through my hm601/Geek Out v2+/ Etir->NFB10ES2->Ember II/HM 901 ->PicoPower rigs there were always improvements but... I felt they were marginal. Improvements in dynamics and transients resolve make me go "ahhh" I used the Superlux HD 668B an Shanling M2S as the base line, as it net's me like maybe 1 ahh moment. Let's shorten that to AHMs [Ahh moments]

I had to use the Line out of my M2S to get the best results at that price point, and moving up the chain as it were... netted me maybe 2s worth of audible improvements in just dynamics, so in a 5 minute song about 2 seconds of it was noticeably better. Which 2 seconds translates into... maybe 4 "ahh I didn't notice that before" moments, what makes those moments for me was a more apparent shift in micro/macro dynamics.

Moving onto transients directly, moving from M2S to Hm901->PicoPower or Etir->NFB10ES2->Ember II/PicoPower I had maybe a total of 4 seconds of noticeably more resolved playback by the end. Since transients are fractions of a second let's just assume my un trained and un experienced ears picked up on maybe... the addition of 2 new transients per second as I scaled, and the extension an increase in resolve for maybe 2 existing transients per second, so all in all 4x4 is roughly 16 Ahh Moments, plus the extra 4 (2x2) changes in dynamics for a total of 20 Potential Ahh moments over a 6 second span[3.33 Ahh moments per second] ...

Moving to the HE 4XX to the M2S got me like 6 AHMs, the jump to the GOv2+ or the JDS Labs EL Dac+Amp got me another 8 AHMs of those for a total of 14 AHMs. Moving from a $500 [2.33 per second] system to upwards of $1500 or $2000 got me an additional 6 AHMs... for a total of 20 ahh moments spilt across 6 seconds [bringing me to 3.33 per second]

On one hand, that's FAR more than I get when I move my HD 668B through my various rigs, but it's also far less than what I get with my Nhoord Red V1 and roughly equivalent from what I get from my $100 KRK KNS 6400...

I also found that the HE 4XX also wasn't super resolving of improvements netted from power or inter-connector Cable upgrades nor from the Schiit Etir, it also wasn't super picky with Source, Yea Lossless sounded the best, but going to lossy removed maybe 1 AHMs per second, so a total loss of 6.67 on my best rig, or about 4.5 on my mid range system.

Ultimately, without hearing it mind you, I'd say the $289 Schiit Stack should be the stopping point for upgrades with an HE 4XX, or anything that performs similarly to the them within the price range.

Again I've NOT heard it so this is an assumption, but I'd imagine even going from like a Cayin N3 [serving as your on the Go DAP and at home Dac/Amp] to a $289 Schiit Stack would be all you'd really need to get optimal performance from the HE 4XX. Scaling beyond that seems kinda wasteful, my $500 systems are where I felt the HE 4XX had the BEST Price to Performance ratio, I'm also assuming that the Magni 3 performs on a similar level of my Portable Pico Power [or maybe better I don't know], so with like $350 you can get you either the EL Dac and Magni 3 or spend a little less and get the Modi Multibit, either way I think spending any more than $500 is a waste on the HE 4XX. As it performs phenomenally well [AHMs aside] with even bare bones entry level stuff.

I really feel the HE 4XX presents a great frequency response and just enough AHMs to keep it interesting, if your wanting to chase after getting the MOST AHMs from your listening experince, then your better off upgrading your headphone before you upgrade you Rig [again assuming your in that sub 500 price range]

 

I don't have too much to add that hasn't already been said, and my fancy audio words are lacking.

The best I can offer is to compare subjectively to the HE-500 and HD650 stock, which are my daily drivers. All listening done with Modi Multibit/Vali 2.

A comparison to the 650 is pointless. It has more bass. It's inferior in pretty much everything else. Which is okay. The 650 is kind of good, if you haven't noticed, and the 4XX is far more affordable.

The comparison to the HE-500 was a more interesting one. Spoiler alert, the 500 is better. BUT, I could see someone picking the 4XX based on preferences. If you want cleaner bass, the 4XX takes it. If you want immediacy, energy, and perceived detail, then the 4XX wins. It jumps out at you. It's exciting. The 500 could be overly reserved and boring in comparison.

But, those are only knee-jerk impressions. As you leave the headphones on for 30 minutes, 60 minutes, or more then those immediate positives become less appealing.

Vocals on the 500 are probably better than any other headphone I've tried (my experience is, admittedly, limited). They are clear, but never overdone or overly aggressive. I felt the 4XX sometimes crossed the line into a little too hot and too forward.

Also, the longer you listen to the 500, the more the details start to make themselves known. They are there, but they aren't forced on you. The 4XXs more forward/energetic presentation became fatiguing to me after a while.

The 4XX may not be that close to the 400i overall, but comparing each of them to the 500s gave me a similar feeling. @JoeDoe (I think?) once described the 400i as being a beer headphone, while the 500 was more akin to a smooth whiskey. I think that analogy works for the 4XX as well. It's fun headphone and I like it. The 500 is simply smoother and more refined.

I wonder about the mods Bill-P mentions. It seems like they could really take the 4XX to a different level and help to overcome some of my squabbles. Given a choice I'll take the 500 every time, but if I were forced to swap out it wouldn't be the end of the world. For a sub-$200 headphone, that is quite the feat.

 

I agree with you, in my experience it scaled fairly well (compared to the other mid-tier HFM headphones I've owned) but not great, definitely not 650 level or anything, I apologise if it came across as such - I also concur with the fact that the 300-500~ price range should be the sweet spot here; I mostly ran them through my office setup which is a Modi MB and a Jotunheim (balanced for the better part) and they felt at home there. The remainder of my gear at home is Gungnir MB > MJ2/Pathos Aurium, I did notice decent improvements off of that as said but nothing colossal or game changing - part of it will also be due to tubes with the latter two amplifiers, of course.

I also used it off of my LG V30 and they performed surprisingly well, better than they did with my AK70 which is quite incredible in my opinion - pretty impressive what this phone can do, really. I can't really speak for cable performance nor the Eitr because I don't yet own one but I'd like to see how they respond to the Gadget (then again, who doesn't want to try all of their headphones with the Gadget) once Mike releases that into the wild.

That said, I find that they're very good value despite, as Skyline mentioned, them being inferior to the 650s in every department except bass (and soundstage, arguably). They're also more comfortable to me personally, even after loosening the clamp on the Senns - and they look good, too.

 

They look damn good, easiest photo's I've taken in like forever! Loved that finish! Good to hear the V30 has enough juice to drive them, also no apologies are required, I'm just happy we both wound up on the same page.

@Bill-P is indeed a magician... I'd love to see how far you could push the HE 4XX honestly!

 

@Hands - did you use the miniDSP rig to measure these?

 

Well, looks like I might have to sell these as soon as I get them. ಠ_ಠ