Chord Hugo 2

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by Cellist88, Jan 5, 2017.

  1. drgumbybrain

    drgumbybrain Science Nut

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    do you think it worth the trade?
     
  2. iDesign

    iDesign Almost "Made"

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    The HDV 820 is inherently tuned for the HD 800 and HD 800 S headphones and I feel it is a far better solution than the Chord DAVE or Hugo 2. However, if you use other headphones I think the Hugo 2 offers more versatility.
     
  3. Vorlon

    Vorlon self-important, pompous ass

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    iDesign just answered what I was about to say... Worth it as in it's being an upgrade for driving the HD 800 family? No, it's not even a sidegrade. More like a downgrade overall mostly due to the tonality adjustments, but better in some regards like raw resolution/microdynamics. Depends on your preferences though, some may see it as an upgrade too depending on what they value the most.

    I indeed got it for the versatility as the headphone industry has in recent years just evolved too much to be stuck with just one headphone manufacturer/product range. Also wanted to be able to use IEM gear on my PC from the same source. Would have done the same if I had any other high output impedance amp. It seems the future mostly belongs to easier to drive headphones and their requirements are just too different for optimal pairing with that kind of gear.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
  4. Vorlon

    Vorlon self-important, pompous ass

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    Just something worth emphasizing now that I´ve had more time with the Hugo 2: the USB implementation is simply not good. Have now done several A/B tests to confirm this.

    It´s pretty clear it has been optimized for battery powered (= low noise) devices, not noisy desktop PCs. There´s just not enough space in the small enclosure/a better USB implementation would drain batteries more. It sounds significantly (less glare, better flow, blacker background etc.) better from a jittery motherboard optical output*. Both of my desktop PCs sound bad via USB. One of them even has some odd glitches/clicks/pops. This is probably not as big an issue with battery powered laptops assuming you get lucky with the shared USB controllers, but I´d still bet it sounds better then too without USB.

    In other words if you are auditioning/considering the Hugo 2 with a standard PC make sure you use optical or coaxial, not the standard USB input. Probably preferably coaxial via something like a Schiit Eitr** since optical tends to be more jittery than a well implemented coax. A Schiit Wyrd or an iFi iUSB 3.0 might work too though, no idea about those. It´s just that personally I´ve never heard a DAC that sounds better from USB than a good coaxial source. At best they just sound the same and it´s a lot cheaper to get a good coaxial source these days than buying a full USB-decrapifier-kit (low noise powered hub + galvanic isolation via Intona or iFi iGalvanic).

    * No idea if this has an effect on the sound, but I am using a high end glass fiber cable (former AudioQuest flagship) I once picked up at 90% off or something similar from a clearance sale.

    ** Just ordered one, should be here next week. I´ll update this post once I get it. Should provide a neat upgrade compared to the current motherboard optical.
     
  5. joeexp

    joeexp Don't ship this man FD-X1 ever

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    just get the Qutest which features a galvanically isolated USB-B.
    + Schiit Magni 3

    The Hugo just sucks via USB. (Like most DACs)
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  6. iDesign

    iDesign Almost "Made"

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    Exactly. I have said for sometime now that Chord too aggressively prioritized chasing the mobile market with the Hugo, Mojo, and Hugo 2. Your reply reinforces the need for Chord to make a desktop DAC with a headphone output and without a battery. The Hugo TT was DOA and the DAVE is out of reach for most buyers.
     
  7. Jerry

    Jerry Friend

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    Chord products generally have piss poor performance/price ratio anyway. Even if they make a desktop DACs, it would be probably be poor value that I wouldn't touch.

    I bought the Mojo out of hype, and sold it after a month. I almost bought 2Qute, luckily was talked out of it.
     
  8. Vorlon

    Vorlon self-important, pompous ass

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    A traditional (non battery powered) desktop DAC/HP amp would be awesome to see, but I doubt it will happen. Chord is primarily into the high end cost no object market. Their portable stuff is an advertisement for people to climb the (very, very expensive) ladder. Doing a non-battery powered Hugo 2 TT at a lowish (for Chord) price range would cannibalize their DAVE sales. The DAVE, while definitely out of reach for most buyers, is actually selling superbly well for a product in its price range. Just look at the huge Head-Fi thread and how many owners are hanging out there. As for Hugo TT being DOA, could well be, but it was a very confused product to begin with. I suspect they will be skipping even the battery powered Hugo 2 TT this time to make their lineup more simple.

    It's also pretty obvious Chord enjoys huge profit margins for their gear and it could well be that it's a lot cheaper to do a low noise power supply with batteries. A real built-in power supply would also likely make the unit larger requiring a bigger case (= and I suspect Chord uses a lot of the bill of materials cost for their fancy audio jewelry casing; unfortunately). In other words a larger chassis Chord DAC/amp with an internal power supply would almost certainly be very expensive since Chord doesn't seem to be a company that has any intentions of lowering their margins. They are very comfortable at doing what they do.

    Don't get me wrong - I´d definitely have preferred if Rob Watts had gone for a different company to partner with, but it is what is is. As for just getting the Cutest and adding an amp, well, that approach isn't exactly without its issues either. There are serious advantages to running an almost direct output from the DAC (high SNR, low crosstalk, extremely short signal path) compared to adding an external amp. Sure it's not optimal with the most demanding headphones, but that's not where this market is heading right now anyway. For less demanding ones it's a superb output stage and the measurements back that up.

    I'm not denying that some Qutest + amp combinations could outperform the Hugo 2, but if you are adding an amp it would need to be a very good one to keep up with the DAC performance. Adding a cheap Magni 3 with its -70dB crosstalk, much lower SNR, standard off the shelf Alps analog volume pot with potential channel balance issues, longer signal path, not class A and so on is pretty far from optimal. There's also the potential issue with mixing digital and analog components from different companies - I at least prefer to always have them from the same company to maximize by design synergy. Plus many consumers in the personal audio field are more or less done with traditional separates so a multi unit stack is already out of the question for them (me included).

    As for price/performance, yeah Chord is far from being a market leader there. But I can assure you the Hugo 2 sounds nothing like the Mojo (which I also disliked). The thing with confirmation bias is that it also works the other way round: when you have bad experiences with a brand in the past and dislike their approach/marketing, it can easily affect your impressions of their newer gear too. I'm not a Chord fan at all, but the Hugo 2 is a good product sound quality wise and also very flexible, but yes it does have severe issues (USB input, value proposition etc.) I like mine a lot, but would not generally recommend it at full MSRP cost unless you are very much into the Chord house sound (which is fairly unique though in my experience), are able to run it from coax/optical and primarily run headphones that aren´t super hard to drive.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2018
  9. iDesign

    iDesign Almost "Made"

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    With regards to your comments about a power supply increasing the size of the enclosure, space certainly wasn't an issue inside of the Hugo TT. Rob Watts said the decision to use batteries in the Hugo TT was largely made by John Franks because Chord didn't want to change the sound from the Hugo. Rob Watts maintains that the Hugo TT could have been built without batteries and it was fully possible at the time. Also keep in mind Chord still offers the TToby which is the primary reason the aging Hugo TT still exists. Although John Franks claims the Hugo TT has performance that approaches the Hugo 2, I suspect sales of the Hugo TT do not support his claims. Lastly, there are a large number of Hugo and Mojo owners that experienced battery charging issues and the independent company Chord uses for repairs in the United States said the rates of failure appear to be higher among owners that continuously charged/played their devices. Chord hasn't demonstrated they have perfected their battery charging algorithms and this is another reason why Chord should produce an affordable desktop DAC with a headphone output and without a battery.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
  10. Vorlon

    Vorlon self-important, pompous ass

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    If there ever is a Hugo 2 TT let's hope Chord finally ditches the batteries. I'd be thrilled to see that happening, but my guess is still that the whole TT lineup will be moved to legacy this year. May not be related, but Rob has been talking about some mystery digital amp project on Head-Fi sometimes.

    Update: went from (motherboard) optical to coax via Schiit Eitr... Small but noticeable improvement, especially in the bass range. Sounds a bit sweeter/more relaxed too. It´s not fatiguing whatsoever anymore (but I´m not very treble sensitive to begin with). Great flow and microdetail. The difference isn't as big as when initially moving from USB to optical though. My take: Hugo 2 is pretty good at managing jitter, but the USB implementation is definitely not optimal as already reported. Eitr has been on for less than 24 hours, so things might still improve. Also I have no idea if cables have an effect on things, but for what it's worth the interconnect is the Chord (Cable Company; not to be confused with Chord Electronics) Clearway so basically made for the Hugo series. Found one for a good price so I thought I'd try the "official" combination. Bonus points for Eitr not requiring any custom drivers for Windows 10 and working perfectly without a single glitch. Finally happy with this setup now.

    tldr; Something like a Schiit Eitr is basically mandatory if you're using the Hugo 2 with your desktop PC. I'd avoid trying to fix USB with decrapifiers as that can quickly get very expensive.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2018
  11. bengo

    bengo Friend

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    Delta-sigma and other "1-bit" DACs like Chord are (should be) inherently less sensitive to jitter than R2R DACs, IIRC due to the very high oversampling rate (I will be the first to admit that I didn't fully grasp the explanation).
     
  12. Kattefjaes

    Kattefjaes Mostly Harmless

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    Yeah, the wear and tear on the battery and the apparently poor thermals always made me nervous about the Mojo- it got incredibly hot when plugged in and running, even when theoretically charged. Something wasn't right there- it'd shut itself down on warm summer days too. That's awful.

    I was glad to sell it to an enthusiastic HF-er and pass the risk on while it was still working.

    By this point though, it's quite hard to give any credit to any of their explanations. They make such outrageous and dubious claims all the way down the line (even if you can unmangle the tortured syntax of deal old John Franks). I suspect that something desktop and purely mains-powered would be a far safer bet if you did want to use one of their DACs (e.g. a DAVE with an external headamp).
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2018
  13. Vorlon

    Vorlon self-important, pompous ass

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    When I had a Mojo I ran it 24/7 as a desktop component because I was assured by the Head-Fi FAQ that it's perfectly safe. It exhibited the same symptoms: got incredibly hot almost randomly and also shut itself down every now and then. Eventually in less than 6 months the battery died completely. It was quickly replaced by warranty, but the whole ordeal convinced me to sell it and move on. If you ask me the Mojo is simply not made for desktop use at all.

    It needs to be said though that the Mojo and Hugo 2 use different battery technologies: Li-Po in Mojo/Poly and Li-Ion in Hugo 2. There´s also a dedicated desktop mode in the Hugo 2 now for the first time. It activates after the charger has been on for 24 hours straight and disables the auto-shutdown function (basically enabling you to run it 24/7). The battery voltage is then lowered to preserve lifespan and it also starts drawing less power. I've ran mine 24/7 since I got it. It's only a little warm when not in use and after being in use for a long time it gets warmer, but it never gets anywhere near as hot the Mojo routinely did nor has it ever shut down on me yet.

    Is it truly ok for desktop use now? No idea, but the improved thermals and the fact that there is a dedicated desktop mode this time are at least somewhat promising. This was a major worry when I got mine, but I decided to give them one more chance as I really liked the sound. Hopefully my optimism was well placed. Needless to say though that if the batteries fail during or after the warranty period there's no way I'm ever buying another battery based Chord product again.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2018
  14. drgumbybrain

    drgumbybrain Science Nut

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    Just saw that chord hugo 2 price it’s even higher. 2700 US dollars in several website.
    I mean.. wtf????
     
  15. iDesign

    iDesign Almost "Made"

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    Chord adjusted their prices again as of February 1st for most products. Chord and their distributor, Blue Bird attribute the pricing adjustments to changes in the exchange rate. However, there are other obvious reasons for their margins which needn't be discussed.
     
  16. Jerry

    Jerry Friend

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    I don't even bother looking at their products anymore TBH.
     
  17. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    To be fair, Chord do, at least, fluctuate their prices both up AND down with major exchange rate changes. DAVE, for example, has been as high as $13,500 (around launch and for a good while after) and as low as $10,540 (early Fall last year).

    No one with a clue is actually paying these prices, of course.

    The way you don't want to buy them (or anything else in the higher tiers of audio, at least that's going via a dealer rather than direct, for that matter) is by sticking the item in the online cart and hitting "checkout". It's always worth giving the dealer a call on stuff like this.

    And while Hugo 2 is way better than the original, at $2,695 it's gone beyond "starting" to take the piss.
     
  18. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    A few thoughts on this thing after the first 20 hours or so with "mine" (as opposed to units I've borrowed or had in my hands and decided to return before opening). Proper impressions/SoC will follow if there's interest, this is just a few off-the-cuff observations ...
    • It took longer to charge than claimed (50% longer, so 6 hours rather than 4, using the supplied 2A charger and with the unit indicating it was charging in "2x" mode).
    • Run-time is shorter than expected (6 hours w/ mixed Utopia/Zeus XRA usage).
    • Fed properly, driving good cans and IEMs, it does sound excellent - far better than Hugo 1 or Mojo.
    • Would not describe it as a "mini DAVE", though there's a "Chord-ness" to the presentation.
    • iPhone X -> Bluetooth (SBC)* -> Hugo 2 sounded bloody awful. Unmissable distortion in quiet passages, and harsh everywhere else. Easily the worst I've heard via Bluetooth SBC - usually it's poor but I've never heard it so obviously distorted before. Not tried a different SBC source to know which end of things are the worst offender yet.
    • Sony WM1Z** -> Bluetooth (aptX) -> Hugo 2 sounded extremely good. Probably the best aptX/Bluetooth performance I've heard. This is "aptX" rather than "aptX HD" (Sony supports both, Hugo 2 just "aptX"). Shame there's no LDAC support.
    • Sony WM1Z** -> USB -> Hugo 2 demonstrates the WM1Z is a very solid USB transport.
    • USB input on Hugo 2 is much better/less fussy than Mojo's (SQ wise).
    • Filters do make a difference, but the "warmer" one (sometimes called "Mojo mode") doesn't sound like Mojo (which is good or bad, depending on your preferences I suppose). Filter 01/White is my preference so far.
    • Despite the excellent sound (and it really is rather good), in my opinion the price is very high*** for what it is - even if you really use it for both portable and desktop use. The better dedicated non-transportable units beat the price and performance levels on offer here.
    • Right now I would tie it with the WM1Z for "best portable audio" I've heard.
    --

    *iOS does not support the "aptX" Bluetooth CODEC, just SBC and AAC. Hugo 2 doesn't support AAC, just SBC and aptX. Thus with iOS you're stuck with SBC which is generally quite lame, if typically not quite this bad.

    **Doesn't really make sense to actually use the thing this way. Performance is similar to the WM1Z, albiet with the Hugo 2 having more power, even though the signatures are different. In real usage if I was taking the WM1Z somewhere then I wouldn't be using/taking the Hugo 2 with it. As a convenient transport for non-portable usage it's another matter, but still overkill - the WM1Z is more than good enough on it's own.

    ***I didn't pay MSRP. And I wasn't going to pay MSRP when they were still $2,395. Don't buy without talking to your dealer. Even discounted, it's still not particularly good value particularly if compared to similarly priced desktop units.
     
  19. Cellist88

    Cellist88 Friend

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    Great to have more positive insights for the hugo 2, though they made it a poorer value proposition by raising the price. Still have to be fair and point out that the wm1z isn't good value either "if compared to similarly priced desktop units" as it still goes for 2.6k for an completely isolated player that can only drive iems and more efficient headphones well.
     
  20. Galm

    Galm Still looking for Little Red Riding Hood

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    The WM1A exists though and it's not exactly leagues behind the Z like Mojo to Hugo 2. If it had the ability to stream it'd be one of the most compelling daps on the market imho. So in that regard the Hugo 2 is still very expensive without much viable alternative from Chord.
     

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