Audio GD DAC 19 vs Bifrost Multibit

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by TheIceman93, Dec 21, 2016.

  1. TheIceman93

    TheIceman93 El pato-zorro

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    I wonder if the language barrier leads to some confusion on our end. Sometimes the way things are worded on his site can be interpreted in different ways. He said he was limiting the the 2016 version of the DAC 19 to 50 units, at least that is what it seemed like he meant. Maybe he is doing that to save the chips for the Master DACs? Who knows. I recognize his talents as a designer and I want to believe that he doesn't straight up lie to boost sales. I mean this chip did go out of production around 2010. Seven years later, I can't imagine there are too many out there.

    While I will stick with the Modi Multibit for now, I really wanted to build a balanced setup. Unfortunately, there aren't really any R2R balanced setups in my price range. The cheapest R2R balanced DAC that I have seen is the Gungnir Multibit at $1250.

    I also considered the ESS 9018 based NFB-1: http://audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/NFB12016/NFB12016EN.htm
    But I don't know how a good 9018 balanced implementation compares to Schiit's single ended multibit DAC's? More shooting in the dark.
     
  2. Clemmaster

    Clemmaster Friend

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    Remember that Audio-gd upgraded the DSP in their PCM1704 line up.

    The improvement is non-negligible in the technical department (bass is not as syrupy anymore. Imaging is improved as well).
     
  3. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    PCM1704 = waifu pillow DAC love. Will never reproduce more humans.

    BURRITO FILTER = promulgating the hairless-ape species known as humanity for another generation against the constantly encroaching universal forces of chaos.
     
  4. TheIceman93

    TheIceman93 El pato-zorro

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    Perfect.
     
  5. Comzee

    Comzee Facebook Friend

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    I can't speak for the dac-19, but I own the Master 7. The dsp7 upgrade (released last month) completely changed the DAC. Less syrupy (big improvement there), less veiled, clarity increase, a tad more detail, bass much tighter. I wouldn't even call M7 the same DAC anymore after that upgrade.

    I've owned Yggdrasil / M7 since the around the time Yggdrasil came out. I've always preferred Yggdrasil, now it's a mix up.
    I run both with a Singxer SU-1 (i2s for m7) (aes3 for Yggdrasil).

    The dsp upgrade is also available for the dac-19, although I can't speak on if it does the same. King-Wa made tweaks to each models dsp code, it's not one piece of code for all 1704 models.
     
  6. Grahad

    Grahad Guest

    Kingwa comes out with so many models constantly that I sort of wonder how much polish goes into each.
     
  7. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    You post so much and contribute so little it makes me wonder how much polish goes into each post. You have half my post count in the week you've been a member, slow down a bit.
     
  8. TheIceman93

    TheIceman93 El pato-zorro

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    Um, not really, he comes out with frequent refinements of the same designs. The topologies are all very similar. I'm pretty sure the C-2 is just the Master 9 cut in half for example.
     
  9. WolfEarAudio

    WolfEarAudio MOT - Wolf Ear Audio

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    I also own both the Gungnir (regular, non multi-bit) and DAC-19 (the newest version).
    I am a big fan of both and really enjoy how natural and relaxed the DAC 19 is. I have one in my main living room set up at home.
    My Gungnir is set up at my computer desk for headphone use and performs very well there.
    If I had to choose between the two models, I would probably go with the DAC-19, unless I needed balanced outputs. But I also haven't heard the Gungnir multibit, so there's always that (though I do plan to get a Yggdrasil some time in the future, so I may never have a Gungnir multibit...)
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2016
  10. Poleepkwa

    Poleepkwa Friend

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    I had the original REF5. With the DSP upgrade it was like whole new DAC - gone was the slightly sleepy sound replace with something that was a lot more muscular and also more cut. It was a big surprise to me how much that firmware upgrade made a difference.
    From that little experiment my understanding
    that DAC chips itself really says very little about a DAC - too many other factors involved. HaRd to believe all "multibit" or R2R dacs are automatically superior to all other dac types.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2016
  11. Clemmaster

    Clemmaster Friend

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    That goes to show how poor the digital implementation of Audio-gd DAC is. I2S is at the rescue thanks to its "pure" nature and the ability to act as a MCLK, but the other inputs pretty much suck(ed).

    I've always felt the DSP could have been used better; e.g. reclocking. I'm not sure they have 2 independent clock domains for 44.1 and 48 multiples.

    Anyway, Kingwa is now focusing on a proper digital implementation (in addition to the good PSU, current mode output and DAC stacking, which made the M7 so dynamic) and it shows great result on the legacy products.
    I have hopes for the singularity line.
     
  12. Kattefjaes

    Kattefjaes Mostly Harmless

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    That's something the Schiit higher-end DACs are big on, aren't they? All that "adapticlock" stuff that tries to work out the best way to do clock regeneration for the selected input?
     
  13. Comzee

    Comzee Facebook Friend

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    Not sure about "adapticlock" but M7 reclocks for sure.
    One of the best features (imo) of M7 over Yggdrasil, is you can turn off reclocking.

    The Singxer SU-1 I own has a far superior clock than the internal M7 clock.
    Turning reclocking off, things got more clear, better imaging, less soft, better impact.

    I wish I could turn the reclocking off on my Yggdrasil to A/B, but such as life.
     
  14. Jozurr

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    I wanted to know your opinion on this: Do you think the SU-1 sounds better on the Yggdrasil (AES) vs using USB directly on Yggdrasil?
     
  15. e.schell

    e.schell Friend

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    "I can't speak for the dac-19, but I own the Master 7. The dsp7 upgrade (released last month) completely changed the DAC. Less syrupy (big improvement there), less veiled, clarity increase, a tad more detail, bass much tighter. I wouldn't even call M7 the same DAC anymore after that upgrade."

    I have a dac-19 10th that i swapped out the usb input for I2s that i feed from an su-1 with PLL disabled in the dac, i got the dsp upgrade not too long after it was being offered and the way you described what it did to the M7 is how i would also explain the way my dac-19 sounds now. I liked it from the beginning, only owned it a little over a year, but i started thinking about buying a Gungnir Multibit until the dsp v7 update, which solved a lot of the problems i was starting to have with dac-19. I still really want to hear a Gungnir Multibit in order to compare as much as i enjoy my dac-19 i would jump ship for a Gungnir Multibit if i preferred it...i'm just hoping one of these days i can find someone to lend me one, get on a loaner or something along those lines so i don't have to buy a Gungnir Multibit just to figure out which i like better, but it may well come to that...however i have a feeling after the update they are going to be closer than ever in performance and may well come down to preference.
     
  16. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    While not directed at me, it's a combination I've tried (and have on hand).

    Pretty much any AES feed into Yggdrasil that doesn't light up the "clock mode" ("buy better gear") light, sounds better than Yggdrasil's USB input.

    This includes using USB -> SU-1 -> AES -> Yggdrasil.

    The SU-1 has it's own quirks and issues, of course.

    Also, the SU-1 does not match the RedNet 3 or D16 units, nor does it match Auralic's Aries (non-LE) feeding Yggdrasil via AES, but it's quite a bit cheaper and doesn't require network-aware sources or virtual sound cards to work, either.
     
  17. Comzee

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    Yes, since Yggdrasil USB implementation is quite bad.
    I've also had Intona USB Isolator, DI-2014 and DI-U8, and a Singxer F1 (although I'm using SU-1 via AES with Yggdrasil as my mainstay).

    I had a unique opportunity to do some in depth testing, and came to some interesting conclusions, take it it as you will.

    It all starts with M7, because that has the capability to turn reclocking off/on (Yggdrasil does not have this function, it's always on reclocking).

    I have a pioneer dvd v7200 with spdif digital out (via RCA). Bottom of the barrel (bad) clock.
    DI-2014 / di-u8, pretty generic txco clock, as far as hifi goes, it's bad. (but not as bad as above)
    Singxer SU-1 and F1 uses decent clocks (mid tier as far as hifi oscillators go), at least better than what's inside M7 for reclocking.

    That's three tiers of oscillator performance.

    I'll put this into a 0-10 system, to try and make sense of it in my head, to convey.
    My subjective rating:

    M7 Reclock off:
    v7200 = 0 (worst frame of reference, gets 0)
    DI-XX = 5
    F1 = 8.5
    SU-1 = 10 (again since this is my best frame of reference, it gets 10)

    M7 Reclock On:
    v7200 = 6
    DI-XX = 6.5
    F1 = 7
    SU = 7.5

    Yggdrasil Reclock On: (taking 0 and 10 again as my frames)
    Built in USB = 0
    V7200 = 8.5
    DI-XX = 9
    F1 = 9.5
    SU-1 = 10

    I hope this illustrates what I'm trying to convey.
    With reclocking on, it pretty much overrides the external clock.
    The main benefits you're getting is the power cleanup, and I'm sure it doesn't hurt to reclock and already fantastic clock. Those two aspects are the marginal increases you see, with both dacs, reclocking on.

    With M7 reclocking off, using I2S (which is a true master / slave setup) it takes the clock unadulterated from SU-1.

    Again, this is all my own speculation, but I believe when your external clock is more accurate than the internal clock (that is reclocking) it hinders performance.
    At least that is what I got out of my testing. I also cross swapped inputs (because DI-XX and SU-1 support bnc/rca/aes/hdmi i2s).

    To cap this off, Yggdrasil in my opinion, gains a huge benefit from getting a DDC that can bypass it's internal USB. Not because it will be a better clock, but simply because the internal USB implementation is just bad. But within that realm, I don't think you need mutec usb+ or rednet for Yggdrasil, in fact I'd think it a waste.
    Stick with something cheap like Singxer F1, and get 99% of what the rednet guys are getting (imo) because the reclocking fudges it all anyway.
     
  18. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I call 99% bullshit on that.
     
  19. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    No, it isn't.

    It might be the weakest input for Yggdrasil, but that doesn't make it bad.

    Again, no it isn't.

    The difference is a matter of last-few-percentage points in most cases ... until you step up to serious transports.

    Yet this is not the case and clocks have nothing to do with it.

    The RedNet devices outperform the SU-1 without much effort. That comes at a cost, but the difference between the RedNet 3 and the SU-1 is bigger than than the difference between Yggdrasil's native USB and using an SU-1 to feed it AES. If it wasn't, I'd use the SU-1 as the RedNet stuff has its own unique inconveniences.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2017
  20. Comzee

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    Of course I've never tried Mutec or Rednet, so I can only lend your impression of those devices to you.
    Within my own comparisons, of what I've had experience with, I stand by what I said I guess.
    Of course anybody's free to disagree, that's why I prefaced "take it it as you will.", in that sense I respect your additional insights.

    I also think Yggdrasil USB is bad, in comparison, to using a DDC. At least for me it was that big of a difference...
    Does that make Yggdrasil USB bad in a general comparison among top tier DACs, of course not, so I'm agreeing there.
    I'm not always clear, I compare within microcosms of only what I've had experience with.

    Edit:

    I also found this interesting. If we're talking last few percentages, and Rednet easily outperforms SU-1, hmm.
    I would say the same of SU-1 to internal USB, it outperforms without effort. So if Renet is that next step beyond that, maybe USB is bad, within the microcosm of Yggdrasil digital inputs and DDC usage.
     

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