Audio GD DAC 19 vs Bifrost Multibit

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by TheIceman93, Dec 21, 2016.

  1. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2016
    Likes Received:
    8,193
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Which makes any comparison you might draw to how Yggdrasil (or anything else) sounds using those interfaces vs. what you have actually heard completely irrelevant. And, in this case, entirely wrong.
     
  2. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,778
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    Other factors to consider. The Yggdrasil USB could be quite bad if the PC's USB is bad. This means 98% of laptops. My Sony VAIO laptop actually has a dedicated USB port on a separate bus. It's not bad, pretty good I must say. My gaming PC's motherboard USB is even better than that. And USB from a separate PCI card is better yet. Other factors could include CPU (USB 2.0 does not support DMA, it still uses system interrupts). OS also matters because different OSs deliver audio data packets in USB differently.

    2017 is supposed to be the year of nice for SBAF and I don't mean to pile on (was writing this post before @Torq's reply appeared).

    "Guessing" (talking about gear you haven't heard) still gets you tarred and feathered on SBAF, unless you are a level 87 Warlock like @Torq. and even then, such statements would be extremely rare and labeled "speculative" or "conjecture" by such an experienced member.

    What makes SBAF different is that experienced members will call people on BS.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2017
  3. Comzee

    Comzee Facebook Friend

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2016
    Likes Received:
    106
    Trophy Points:
    33
    Agreed. I was extending my conclusion based on the results from v7200, di-XX, Singxers. Within those, the Yggdrasil reclock fixed them all right up, making the split in sound difference (imo) smaller. My conclusion appears to be wrong, as you say Rednet and Mutec effortlessly outperform SU-1.


    Hmm, when I did use Yggdrasil USB (for about the first 6 months I owned it), I always used it from a Schiit Wyrd (and for a short period Intona USB Isolator).
    Used it primarily from Desktop usb to Wyrd, had the Wyrd running from my laptop for a short while. To my ears, it wall all the same off the Wyrd.
     
  4. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2016
    Likes Received:
    8,193
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    In what way is that "interesting"?

    The difference between Rednet and SU-1 (both via AES) is bigger than the difference between Yggdrasil's native USB and SU-1 into AES. It's all still last-percentage point deltas, its just its a bigger delta in one case than the other.

    SU-1 into AES vs. Yggdrasil's native USB is a useful and easily discerned upgrade. RedNet (etc.) is a bigger upgrade still. But neither of them changes the fundamental character or capability of the DAC.
     
  5. Comzee

    Comzee Facebook Friend

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2016
    Likes Received:
    106
    Trophy Points:
    33
    Yup, agreed.
    Just a misunderstanding, explaining audio is hard, and I don't have back history or reference in these forums.
     
  6. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

    Staff Member Pyrate MZR
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    12,285
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Colorado
    Home Page:
    @Comzee If you haven't heard a really good (and I do mean really good), non-USB source, you have no idea just how bad USB anything sounds.
     
  7. Comzee

    Comzee Facebook Friend

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2016
    Likes Received:
    106
    Trophy Points:
    33
    Best non usb I've heard is v7200 rca spdif to Yggdrasil, and the su-1 beat that.
    I'd be interested to hear one of those crazy af cdp, but I never got into CDs because convenience outweighs performance for me.

    Maybe if it was a mind altering experience, I'd switch to CDs.

    edit:
    Assumed you were talking digital (streaming/flac) vs CDs.
    I guess you can go the pcie route to bypass usb, but my research tells me usb offboards such as su-1 and mutec usb+ is better than the pcie hifi cards. Maybe pcie is the answer?
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2017
  8. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

    Staff Member Pyrate MZR
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    12,285
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Colorado
    Home Page:
    What is the v7200?

    You can get stuff like the Soundstage D100, Auralic Aries, or a crazy expensive Aurender, for examples, if you want a good, digital transport without using a CDP. And most CDPs aren't going to be worth it. But a good non-USB solution like the above will, IMO and experience, best even a customized Mutec 3+ w/ LPSU.
     
  9. Aklegal

    Aklegal Friend

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2016
    Likes Received:
    623
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Your research is wrong and I'm saying that as polite as I can. You have to hear pci-exp cards for yourself. Stick with Lynx, Digigram or RME. I've had the Singser F-1, SU-1 and Rednet D16 in house. The D16 was better than the F-1 and Su-1 (were talking audiophile differences here but think Yggdrasil usb input vs SU-1 level difference). Alas, the D-16 is way too expensive and not worth it. But PCI-exp cards are much cheaper. While I didn't have the Rednet and my PCI card at the same time my current card is AT LEAST its equal and no where near as finicky to deal with.

    The thing about USB is that it has way too many variables. Those usb devices will sound different from computer to computer. You will spend way less money by abandoning usb.
     
  10. Comzee

    Comzee Facebook Friend

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2016
    Likes Received:
    106
    Trophy Points:
    33
    I'll admit, I only keep flac for reference and A/B, I pretty much exclusively stream, in the sense of services. I know I could music server + flac and create playlists and all that jazz, but the work is immense. Even if I used illegal means, finding and downloading what I listen to would be daunting. If I went the legal route, the music would end of costing me more than all my gear combined...

    I think if I ever hear a rig that rly just blows my mind, I could get into physical media or flac. Every meet I've ever been to, nobodies had competent digital equipment in their chains. Pcie, top tier cdp, music server, would love to try those all.
     
  11. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

    Staff Member Pyrate MZR
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    12,285
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Colorado
    Home Page:
    A lot of these transports support UPnP/DLNA, meaning you can find ways to hook them up to your network and use streaming services through them. Or, as has been said, get one of those nice Lynx cards.
     
  12. Clemmaster

    Clemmaster Friend

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Likes Received:
    3,268
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Raspberry Pi 2 (or 3) with Digi+Pro gets you there for much cheaper.

    You just need to know how to flash an image on a SD card. It's even made very simple using Hifiberry's software, which helps you select the distribution based on your need.
     
  13. Jozurr

    Jozurr Facebook Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2015
    Likes Received:
    208
    Trophy Points:
    43
    What is this clock mode LED you talk about?
     
  14. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2016
    Likes Received:
    8,193
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    The right most LED on Yggdrasil's front panel tells you what clocking mode the Adapticlock system is operating in. If that LED is lit then you're dealing with a source that exhibits poor clock stability and high jitter. It has been referred to as the "Buy Better Gear Light".

    From Yggdrasil's manual:

    "VCO/VCXO Indicator.

    Also known as the “buy better gear” light. If this is illuminated, the Yggdrasil’s input clock regeneration (Adapticlock) is in VCO mode, or lower-quality mode. This means your source does not provide a good center frequency, or jitter is too high for the better VCXO mode to operate."

    ...

    I think the only time I have ever seen this light come on was with a Google Chromecsst ...
     
  15. Peti

    Peti Facebook Friend

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2016
    Likes Received:
    107
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    PRC (People's Republic of California)
    I've been strongly thinking to obtain a DAC-19, once again. The description this DAC gets (syrupy, smooth) is spot on, and that's why I like(d) it with the HD800. Now that I have a decent amp in my possession that pairs well with the HD800, I just want to get that DAC-19 again. Anyhow, I have recently bumped into a comment of NWAVGUY, which might explain why the DAC-19 sounds the way it sound. Aforementioned gentleman used to appear on the AVS forum, too, and I have been reading through his posts there. Here's the one I want to bring up:

    http://www.avsforum.com/forum/173-2...ase-explain-upsampling-dacs.html#post20169980

    "There are certainly DACs that intentionally deviate from being accurate. Some, for example, use low pass filtering that deliberately softens the high frequency response. And some people prefer the sound of those DACs."

    Could it be the case with the DAC-19? I am not taking his words as gospel, but he is certainly appearing to me as a competent person talking about this subject. Hopefully someone wit the adequate knowledge can chime in on this?

    P.S.: I tried to locate the dedicated DAC-19 (Anniversary, or pre, not the newer models) thread, but found it not, so I decided to post it here.
     
  16. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

    Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    2,153
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Estonia
    Pfff, what? This dude was funny.
    Many dacs use low pass filtering in some form. A simple RC filter is often added for ultrasound filtering in way over audible band to lessen stability issues with some amplifiers.
    Reconstruction filter is subspecies of low pass filter and this one is inside most audio dacs.
     
  17. Grahad2

    Grahad2 Red eyes from too much anime

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2017
    Likes Received:
    1,162
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Singapore
    (Side note: Why is there a link to a microphone??)

    To be fair, it is entirely possible to have different severity of filtering since Nyquist, aliasing, etc, so a NOS DAC that wants to not have a sharp filter will roll off the highs earlier than OS DACs. That is a design choice. There's a thread on filtering in DACs somewhere in this forums as well.
     
  18. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,778
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    The syrupy sound is mostly the PCM1704 chip and partially AG-D's analog stage. This sound can be mitigated but not eliminated. Sure there is early roll-off with certain filters and NOS implementations, but the roll-off is at the very high frequency extremes and very minor, a decibel or less. Most people past 16 years old won't be able to hear such small differences this high up. (I don't believe that your DAC-19 was NOS, so there should have been no roll-off).

    99% of the avsforum and NWAVGUY turds think everything can be explained by science, but it can't. They also tend to have very little experience with different DACs, especially high quality ones.
     
  19. a44100Hz

    a44100Hz Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2016
    Likes Received:
    1,159
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    US East
    Would it be more accurate to say that the specific physical phenomena involved are sometimes poorly understood because they're exhibited during such a niche use case that they are not the focus of any significant research, or that the complexity of interactions of the various electrical and physical phenomena occurring at this niche scale are poorly explained by the basic broad-stroke physics that such people tend to cite? Which implies that these phenomena they're citing are technically correct but only under certain conditions, generally so in a theoretical vacuum and not for some of our niche use cases when multiple devices with potentially misunderstood or complex interactions are involved in sequence. As with almost anything physical, the more interrelated factors involved the more difficult precisely defining (predicting) the sum of these factors becomes, and it is this lack of comprehensive empirically-derived time-consuming reproducibile mathematical functions that necessitates "trusting our ears". (I ask because your phrasing may bait trolls.)
     
  20. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,778
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    Both. Use cases are niche and science is broad stroked.

    Actually, measurements often cited are too narrow in scope and NOT understood by the layman or even some self appointed experts to be visualization methods to distill complex information so that it can more easily be digested. Whenever this is done, something is lost.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017

Share This Page