Audio GD Singularity 19 - New R2R DAC

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by TheIceman93, Jan 25, 2017.

  1. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    Lots of equipment has definite warm-up/thermal stability requirements - some even comes with calibration data that is only valid after a certain period of power-on and/or in certain ambient conditions. Though usually there are "ovens" and other controls involved in maintaining as much stability there as possible.

    My goal is not so much to see if there are differences (some are clearly audible, even if most are somewhat exaggerated), but more to see, where DACs are concerned, if a) any audible changes are actually accompanied by measurable differences, b) see if we're talking about a 30-minutes-after-power-on-for-the-first time thing vs. days/weeks, c) put some data behind the notion that some units claim to sound "shitty" without 300 hours of burn-in and somehow are magically transformed into sonic nirvana thereafter*.

    But Yggdrasil definitely benefits, in fact the entire Schiit MB design is notable in this regard. The Spring DAC is quite sensitive in this regard as well (to the extent that the designer actually put a secondary low-power PSU in the chassis to keep the important stuff at temperature - though for me that's a bit redundant as I just leave the thing powered on 24/7).

    After all even a wristwatch's accuracy is affected by thermal stability (mechanical or electronic).

    --

    *It's this last one that bugs me - I think it's a claim made far too often and for largely disingenuous reasons.
     
  2. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    @borrego:
    1. Stop acting like a cunt. I was going to simply reply "OK", but you've made a few wrong assertions which I feel need to be corrected.
    2. You need to stop speaking on behalf of Audio-GD and/or assuming we don't know what the f**k we are doing. @Torq, @Hands, and I have probably each evaluated more DACs than you ever will in 15 lifetimes.
    3. The Amanero XO would not affect folks like Torq, @Hands, and I. We don't use USB, because USB sucks. While Amanero is an improvement over the VIA that AGD used to use, it still sucks compared to SPDIF.
    4. Even if we did use the USB / Amanero XO, I doubt power to the oscillators is cut off. As @Clemmaster said, that would be a bad approach. Again, stop speaking on behalf of Audio-GD, because it's obvious you don't know much about this stuff. It's obvious to everyone here that 99% of what you say is random conjecture or stuff that is highly exaggerated as a result of suffering from ATM (Audiophila Tweakers Myopia).
    5. Even if you did kinda know what you are talking about, no one here would believe you. You've established negative credibility.
    6. Audio-GD shorting unused inputs on their preamps is a good practice in theory, but horribly retarded practice in reality. One guy I knew had his DAC blow up because his DAC's output did not expect a short-circuit load on the Audio-GD. While it's nice of you to tell us about "feature sets" (which we already know about) of Audio-GD pre-amps, you need to stop advertising for Audio-GD. FWIW, I've heard two Audio-GD preamps. They fantastically suck - too veiled.
    7. Liking my posts doesn't help anyone get on the loaner list. I don't manage the loaner programs, I don't want to, and I don't have the time. So far, no one who has wanted in on the DAC loaners has been refused a spot. People who know me know that I get annoyed at people who try to kiss my ass with a plethora of likes. Look where this got Huxleigh for example.
    8. I don't know WTH you are blabbing on about with "pirates".
    9. The S19 will be given a fair shot despite any personal biases any of us may have. One of our mottos is "prove us wrong".
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2017
  3. borrego

    borrego Incessant Audio-GD #1 Fan Boy

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    I believe I have shared both the good and bad points of audio-gd products, equally, in my posts, from an current owner points of view. Yet you accused me advertising for audio-gd, among other things I care less to mention.

    I wish you all the best for what you do and will continue to do for this site. This is my last post here.
     
  4. Vtory

    Vtory Audiophileâ„¢

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    Am I the only one thinking singularity line-ups are a bit strange?

    I initially assumed that "singularity" products mean dacs with new dac modules named "da-m1" instead of pcm1704uk.
    But unlike S19, S7 (as well as S11), a more expensive sister, still uses 1704, not da-m1.

    My conjecture is either
    1) Kingwa doesn't think his new dac modules are suitable for the level of his "master" products.
    or
    2) Maybe AGD want to hear feedback from real customers by selling somewhat "experimental" products (I mean.. S19 in this case).
    Maybe both.. I don't know.

    Another strange thing is that I had difficulty in understanding the technical difference between S7 and master 7 (1704-based).
    http://www.audio-gd.com/Master/Master-7_384/M7384EN.htm
    http://www.audio-gd.com/Master/Singularity 7/Singularity 7EN.htm

    To me both looked almost identical. And agd perhaps increased the price without enough justification.
    Surely, It's also possible that I am not smart enough to understand tech difference from agd's descriptions:confused:.

    Anyway hope to hear impressions for S19 soon.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2017
  5. Rockin_Zombie

    Rockin_Zombie Facebook Friend

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    Looks like S7 has a better processing board + better analog section. There's some blurb about DSP software upgradability etc. I guess the update process will be easier than how the DSP V7 update was rolled out (buy USB blaster etc etc)? Quite difficult to decipher AGD's website, can't they hire someone to do the translation?
     
  6. Clemmaster

    Clemmaster Friend

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    The singularity line features improved digital receiver section, where they ditched the off the shelf S/PDIF receivers and implemented their own in CPLD (or FPGA?), with faster processing capabilities.

    Audio-gd S/PDIF inputs sucked balls and USB (when you're lucky) or (better yet) I2S was the only way to go.

    Now, they have custom S/PDIF inputs featuring re-clocking (as opposed to clock re-generation with PLL, like most S/PDIF inputs on the market based on off the shelf receiver chips), which should provide much better resilience to external interference (noise + jitter).

    Atomicbob's early impression of the S7 were that S/PDIF inputs now perform much better, almost to the level of I2S over HDMI.
    I2S input now benefit from an "exact mode" (or something like that), which improve things further, still.

    Now, I'm wondering the same thing about the use of the 1704uk chips in the "Master" line, as opposed to the home baked R2R solution. Maybe the resolution is not high enough to make it in the reference line?
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2017
  7. eastboundofnowhere

    eastboundofnowhere Facebook Friend

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    I'm with Vtory on this. Pardon my ignorance, never tried anything from them before, but their site makes it look like the Master 11 singularity is in the same family as the s19 DAC…except the technical description falls back on the 1704 chip which means I have no idea how it differs from the other Master 11. I might be following this thread for the wrong reasons, kind of need a balanced pre amp. Due to a room change the amp itself will be physically at least 15 feet from the rest of the gear and I would consider a NOS dec(so I can try one) and a headphone amp(for when I need one in that room) a plus.

    Yeah if i had the technical know how to make a Gumbreya I would, warranty be damned, but I can only solder de-solder and follow basic instructions so this thread turned me on to what looks like some potentially neat relatively inexpensive products. Veering too far off topic, again I second Vtory's post.

    EDIT: Clemmaster answered a lot of this while I was slowly typing.
     
  8. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I still don't see how the, pretty basic looking, discrete R2R module is going to get close to the linearity or consistency of a regular LSI IC converter.

    It doesn't seem to be using the most tightly toleranced parts (the higher end version is about an order of magnitude off what's possible), and at the price I don't think it's likely that anything has been hand-matched, which makes me think the thing is going to be more heavily affected by warm-up than some other designs. There are ways around that, but I'm not seeing anything on those boards that looks like it is tackling them.

    Now, again, at the price, I don't expect 0.01% resistors or hand-matched parts, but I'm not expecting it to come in at the same performance level of the PCM-1704 either. I do expect it to require proper warm-up though.

    This is one of those cases where I'd like to be wrong ... guess we'll see ...
     
  9. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    So in essence, "Singularity" = AGD DSP'ing the digital receivers for SPDIF, AES, and adding a buffer / reclocker before their digital filter. Good to know their SPDIF inputs are much better. When I had the Master 7, I didn't feel the SPDIF input scaled that much with better CD transports and ultimately decided that i2s via DACLadder's HDMI card (from the OR5) was the best sounding.
     
  10. Clemmaster

    Clemmaster Friend

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    They also tweaked/improved the analog section a bit.

    Atomicbob got a S7 (or is it DACLadder? I can't remember). He can confirm the above.
     
  11. Kattefjaes

    Kattefjaes Mostly Harmless

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    It's going to be fascinating to see the comments from actual grown-ups listening to it. It's all but impossible to get sense from the AGD chorus, normally.

    If you accept the maxim that "even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day", then maybe one of these days Kingwa's going to smash it and put out something really decent. Given AGD's ever-changing lineup, it will be "blink and you'll miss it", but still. Theoretically it's possible. Stop smirking.

    This particular design seems like it's a bit of a stretch, and it will be weird if it's actually really accurate, but... you know, in the spirit of inquiry and all.. It would be a shame to improve the SPDIF inputs, but then lose ground on a slightly wonky R2R ladder.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    AGD finally has the S19 ready to ship.
     
  13. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

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    I'm not sure how I am involved in all this but I have only experienced a few AudioGD products at local meets. Never spent time with any in my lab or measured any. My current project involves DDC jitter measurements which I am hoping to complete in several weeks. Hard to make progress when constantly interrupted by corporate activity rescheduling.
     
  14. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Glad to know that they finally built your DAC two days ago from when you last spoke to them on March 2 when they said they were burning it in.
     
  15. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    The real question is if AGD is going to use ovens in the Singularity or not.
     
  16. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    Do they use them in their other products?

    I would go poke around their site and look for myself, but it's far too early for me to try and brave comprehending what passes for "English" on their web-site.
     
  17. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I don't think it's necessarily a Engrish problem. It's convoluted Chinese brain problem that confuses customers. Audio-GD isn't the only one with this problem, but they sure are a poster child for it. Too many SKUs, product variants that compete against each other, models that disappear and re-appear, strange product names (WTH is an NFB-3.14159265, or Master X), "warmer" versions of a DAC that actually sound more neutral than "neutral" versions (yes, I've experienced this), on occasion, poor communication and setting bad expectations with customers (like in this instance), Chinese bullshit selling techniques a la "only 38 pieces left, buy now!", etc.

    Some young audiophiles love this complexity and shit though. Look how well Gavin @ LH sold customers on the 15-23 permutations of the Geek Out products. Personally, I hate it. Life is too short.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2017
  18. Grahad2

    Grahad2 Red eyes from too much anime

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    Well he's now in Audioengine so... Waiting for the IGG campaigns to start.

    I think some people like the 'difficulty'. The higher the barrier to entry the more exclusive and elite it seems.
     
  19. mscott58

    mscott58 Friend

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    Just looked up Gavin's current LinkedIn profile and here's what it says at the top of his profile:

    "High-end audio digital marketing pro that dabbles in crowdfunding and miscellaneous tomfoolery."

    Underlining is mine, but the rest is his. Oy.
     
  20. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Pyrate Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    An entire lineup of gear that doesn't scale up in detail with completely different tonalities that change too. The big AGD amps are fun but not very high-fidelity while the lower end stuff has more low level detail but sounds macrodynamically compressed, glary, and with the worst aspects of whatever DAC chips used evident.

    LH labs dongles are okay but all sound weaksauce with Sennheisers with audibly filtered out high end detail to tame the Sabre. I actually like the meme-worthy Groove more despite worse filter it's more powerful.
     

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