EC Aficionado (was: The Studio Jr.)

Discussion in 'Headphone Amplifiers and Combo (DAC/Amp) Units' started by AppleheadMay, Nov 10, 2015.

  1. Cellist88

    Cellist88 Friend

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    I don't think age would not have mattered in this case. Wouldn't have mattered if he was 40-60. I wouldn't call him a spoiled millenial just because he has an AF at 27.

    Going off topic:

    You should see that audio gear cost is quite inconsequential compared to the classical music world. The stereotypical rich korean girl that goes to a conversatory will have million dollar instruments and multiple six figure bows , getting "lessons" at $500 an hour weekly, on top of their 50k tuition they have no problem paying, while living offcampus in trump tower in NYC. On top of that, they aren't good, don't really practice, go on shopping sprees, and eat at michelin star restaurants, with occasional visits to the school cafeteria in evening dresses. Only expectation they have is to graduate and find a husband(Goodluck with their trash, I'm rich rude attitude). Many have never taken the subway in NYC because it is deemed not safe/dirty Lol. Korean Culture if your child plays music, its usually a status symbol of wealth.

    Now that's what I see as a spoiled millenial and its not hard to find them in any art/fashion/music school. Of course there are exceptions, but many fit the bill of this description....many meaning at least 100 in any given graduating class in music school in NYC. Lol
     
  2. JK47

    JK47 Guest

    Then the bank bought it
     
  3. jexby

    jexby Posole Prince

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    Exit stage left....
    (and with that personal finance update, we now return this thread to actual words written about the EC Af amp and connected equipment.)
     
  4. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Please do tell me that you own at least 25% by now.
     
  5. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

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    21%. I'm not a gillionaire like you guys
     
  6. Ziva

    Ziva Friend

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    I'm only commenting on the speaker outs, but anybody who has ordered an AF and is getting nervosa from the aspersions cast on the previous page should really remember this 2%.

    In my opinion, the AF with high efficiency speakers gets within 10-15% of the EAR 868/890 for 1/4 the price. I probably won't ever cap roll (my wife can build electronics and laughs when I ask about electrocuting myself) or tube roll (WE 396a + JJ 2A3), so I can't say how much of a difference they make, but don't lose the forest for the trees.

    PS: in an RSD line in Brooklyn listening to Biggie on some Port a Pros. Forget the nervosa.
     
  7. m17xr2b

    m17xr2b Friend

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    Well I'm 28 and I've had quite a list of overpriced stuff and just took deliver of the new PS Audio P12. How? I got really good at my job and switch to contracting for large companies where skilled people are really hard to find so they pay me what I'm worth.
     
  8. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I act like a ten year old. Just wanted to make that clear so there is no expectation that I act my age. And yes, I will pee on your amp if I do not like you. The senior members already know this.
     
  9. winders

    winders boomer

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    That is not how money lending works. The house that @msommers bought with borrowed money is indeed likely the collateral for the loan but that does not mean "the bank bought it". The bank doesn't want to own the house. The bank wants @msommers to pay off his loan over the specified life of the loan.

    The only "good" debt to have is mortgage debt assuming you are not under water.

    Hell, I heard that Marv will pee on his own amp!
     
  10. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

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    I really couldn't give two shits about having a mortgage and not paying off a house in full by 30. That's just life.
     
  11. Ringingears

    Ringingears Honorary BFF

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    We don’t usually talk about the “golden river” meet. We lost some good amps that day. Marv’s aim was off and.....I’ve said too much already.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2018
  12. Maxx134

    Maxx134 Dunning–Kruger effect poster boy

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    I have been meaning to p**, um, I mean,
    to give some tid-bits of information,
    And try alleviate any audiofile nervosa going on.
    :)

    This quote..
    This is the best and only recommendation to even remember to consider.
    Nothing else.

    I would also like to expand on, and agree what he says about "other tweaks"...
    It could definitely alter the tube amp harmonics in a wrong way...

    The right balance of tube Harmonics are everything...
    We buy a tube amp for this very unique aspect, which is the "majic" it gives..

    The descision making of selecting components, and bias points, and circuit choices, and tube combination, and PSU voltage levels....
    Like a "cook" mixing his experience of "ingredients"..
    All those choices becomes an "art" to the successful amp designers.

    To get an amp to be both "musical", "holographic", and transparently detailed all at same time.
    Keeping all those atributes while sustaining realism,
    Is tricky without sounding lifeless, cold, dead, sterile or,
    The other extremes of colorful, thick, busy, tubey, etc....

    It really is an art to get it all right,
    so that the amp is "only" noticed as "musical" & "lifelike".

    This is the "dirty little secret" of designers..
    They are actually like cooks,
    Balancing all these components & settings from experience and finesse.

    Its not just about getting most accurate signal.
    Its the nuances that play into how the music is "presented" to you...

    Succesfull "end-game level" amps already have the resolution .
    Making the amp "come alive" musically, is an art.

    It can also go wrong...
    And IMHO,
    This is what happened (in perspective to a certain amount), sadly,
    to the top woo wa33 when they offered the "uber" version.

    It sounds more accurate but also dead & sterile than stock version...(!)

    And yet they both also sounded lifeless next to the new Cayin HA-300 (a 300b amp, about $1k more than the AF).

    Keep in mind these amps are still all "end-game" level, resolving amps..

    Many will be initially impressed, as I was, untill I could compare.


    This is important and good to know, and so the work is done already on optimal/recomemded value.


    That's an old story about the older generation beeswax version melting.

    Also, for those thinking of attempting this cap swap/upgade,
    Don't make mistake to get the "Jupiter beeswax", as it's a thick sound(!)..
    Use only the recomemded Jupiter 'copper foils".


    "Audyn copper" has the capacity of having that "natural" trebles sound, (with focus & resolve close to the best),
    but not the delicacy and holography of the Jupiter copper foil (depending on circuit).


    That not only reinforces the importance of the "coupling cap" position,
    But is telling of how transparent the amp is.

    I would argue that most tube amps, that are designed using coupling caps,
    are always stiffled in this area..

    Simply because of the high costs of good caps,
    compared to the need for profit margin concerns.
    Its an understandable compromise.

    Yet, I once had to redo some really shitty $3-5 coupling caps in an expensive stax amp(!).
    Very shameful practice that time.


    When I first started modding tube amps,
    I too, had Audiofile nervosa, and was using this site for matching everything .. caps, Resistors..lol
    Talk about nervosa lol

    The truth is, that the best amp designers know how to work parts choices (tubes & components),
    to manipulate the perfect ratios of "desired" tube Harmonics...

    To blend realism with euphoric musicality.
    It's truley is NOT all about getting low "THD"...
    IMO, that's the designer's talent.

    Correct..
    That's why those ARE the recommended caps..

    Impressions will vary with headphones and "user sensitivity" level at the time.

    Some say 2%, others will feel like 20%, as the Improvement amount is subjective to user.

    When upgrading from stock Russian caps, Your essentially going from "good", to "best in class".

    Last time I checked about 2yr ago, Old Russian caps were better than half of all the caps out at the time(!).

    When I last researched(way back), the top caps were: Vcap, duelund, & newly released Jupiter .

    Not sure how much changed since then, but the appearance of "Audyn copper" at lower price point was a good thing.


    Actually there is a misconception here...

    The Transparency not relevant to the amount of capacitance.
    From my experience, transparency is affected by Materials, voltage rating, and on the circuit design.

    As for capacitance value,
    A greater capacitance value will mainly lower the bass cutoff frequency...so I can vaguely agree when you said "fuller".

    As an example,
    "IF" we were to say,(in an arbitrary amp), a .1uf coupling cap would enable the low end to go to 20hz...
    Then a slightly larger .2uf may only take you down another 5hz to 15hz, so it's really not a big deal.

    Remember I am giving an example, not the actual values for the AF, as not my amp lol.

    The actual bass cutoff freq for the coupling cap depends on the circuit design.

    So my point is, that IMHO,
    there is a misconception about the increased cap value (in capacitance) to be "sounding" better,
    when in fact the real parameters responsible are the materials and especially voltage rating.

    Some amp makers take advantage of this,
    and get away with cheaper priced, lower cap values, of much higher voltage rating,
    to sound good, but at the sacrifice of bass extension (depending on circuit).


    To me, Deulands are truley overrated, because athough they are having clarity, they also have their "own" sound.

    They are also rediculously expensive,
    in order to perpetuate this mystique..
    They may be one of few at the top, but so are still others, so Don't believe the hype of it being the best.
    Some swear by Vcaps.

    What works good on one amp may not in another, like matching pieces of a puzzle,
    so best to follow the recommend choice.


    Can't say anything about Audiocap except that it's a poly-type.

    Jupiter not sound wet to me.
    The trebles on the Jupiter copper were the most natural, and is a quality that none of the poly caps can do.
    IMO, The Afficionado will highlight this.

    This is also why I would never go for the sea of poly-type caps out there.

    As example, I find the popular mundorf caps as having a sweet musical yet artificial top end.
    And yet this wasn't realized or noticed untill I switched to the Jupiters..
    Even "silver" types are artificially skewed in detail or brightness.

    IMHO, the most natural sounding "type" is the copper foil, and the Jupiter's are well regarded.

    And don't believe the hype of @Comzee that the Jupiters are needing so much beak in.
    They still sound excellent right from the start.


    There is a really good point here.
    Neither is critical, just preference.

    Here is "MY" take on the two changes:
    1-cap change = only positive changes if following the recommendation here and not stray off course with different caps.(can-o-worms)

    2- tertiary feedback = questionable choice because:
    *A- introduce what is essentially some NFB, and whatever positives and negatives associated.

    *B- adds possible "transformer winding" qualities into the feedback sound.(guessing).

    *C- reduces tube own sonic characteristics.

    *D- Reduce amplification.

    *E- Change tube sound signature for different or "cleaner" sound.

    *F- all this adds up to a "different" sounding amp that we must decide who to agree to believe.
    I believe the designer choice.

    I would be wary of "cleaner" sound,
    because once you "already" reached top level transparency, all that's left, is the character of the amp...

    As I have just noted before, IMHO, it didn't work out so well for the woo wa33 going this route.
    The uber expensive upgrade wa33 model,
    was more sterile and lost all its euphoric sound over the stock.
    Same realism, more clean and yet more lifeless.
    It was a true "WTF?!" moment, because only a few months before, I thought it was amazing.


    Exactly my point.
    If anyone knows what they are talking about,
    it is those involved in making the amp.

    This is why EC has it's excellent reputation.
    Remember there is an "art" of making an amp.

    This coincides with my opinion and it is a really important one.
    You don't want to kill the strengths, of what makes a tube amp special.

    From memory the Afficionado (AF) at last NY SBAF meet,
    was very lively and musical,
    leaving me with the lasting impression of nice treble air and soundstage.
    I am not sure if that Afficionado was stock or upgraded though.

    From memory, that specific Afficionado was just as enjoyable as the Cayin HA-300 I heard at Canjam, which was my favorite amp at Canjam.

    I might be persuaded to state the Afficionado had a sweeter sound and more space in soundstage, compared to Cayin (HA-300) larger & more euphoric sound (using 300b )
    But I would be really reaching here from memory,
    so take that with a grain of salt.

    The point is, the level of all amps I mentioned in this post are still end-game territory (to put things in perspective).
    You must "pick your poison" for you only,
    As System synergy is everything.

    My opinions are ONLY my own experience & personal views,
    And so I fully understand and respect others opinions which may vary .
    I hope that helped in any way...
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2018
  13. Melvillian

    Melvillian Friend

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    With the Jupiters, I recommend the audio note electrolytic caps for the power tube bypass instead of the stock nichicons. The Jupiters are very aggressive and I felt like there was just way too much going on in the treble. The audio notes made the amp sound cleaner and more refined. With the stock interstage caps, I think the nichicons are fine.

    The Duelund CAST copper sound too warm and closed-in in the aficionado. The Jupiters halve a lot more air and overall better soundstage, and seem more resolving because of the treble. This doesn’t mean the Duelunds are bad though. I think they’re better, just not in the aficionado. The one thing that really bugs me about the Jupiters is that they don’t have the pitch black background of the Duelunds.

    I tried the Auden true coppers and found them very pleasant, but they’re just missing something. I think that’s why Marv calls them “too organic”. Overall they’re good caps though, but maybe in a different amp. There’s also a new true copper max, which I haven’t tried. Those might be more neutral.

    Edit** Jupiters are the way to go and they definitely change the sound of the amp.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2018
  14. Thenewerguy009

    Thenewerguy009 Friend

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    Gotta say, this is spot on.
    There are so much factors that can change the sound.

    I had footers, power cables, interconnects, tubes & other tweaks that all altered the sound significantly.
    If you have a transparent enough system, you can always tune it to your liking.
     
  15. winders

    winders boomer

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    Have you guys tried using the Duelund caps with the Duelund bypass caps? That is supposed to open them up so they sound right up top.
     
  16. Melvillian

    Melvillian Friend

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    The copper/silver hybrid caps sound really good. That’s what I’m using right now in the AF, but they’re way too expensive...
     
  17. Taverius

    Taverius Smells like sausages

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    @Melvillian got a link for the audio note electrolytic?

    Not sure if I'll want them, but I'd like to have the link just in case.
     
  18. Boops

    Boops Friend

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    It was stock.
     
  19. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    The stock sounds good. Don't let @Comzee convince anyone otherwise with the warmpoo and lack of dynamics comments. Keep in mind that @Comzee never heard the stock version. Yes, the classic tube no feedback approach will result in less bass grip, but the AF is not a particularly warm or bassy sounding amp. It's actually less warm than BW and ZDS. @Comzee's amp has better bass control, more focused and precise sound, but is flatter dynamically and less open. The differences are smaller than most people would think.
     
  20. Ray

    Ray Friend

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    AF was easily the best amp I’d ever heard. Considerably better than the bw2 & ZDS. Also better than my el3n amp I have now, but the Glenn amp is more what I was looking for. There’s always going to be trade-offs.
     

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