Headphone System with the the best Soundstage for Movies & Gaming (HD800)

Discussion in 'Headphone Amplifiers and Combo (DAC/Amp) Units' started by BenjaminBore, May 23, 2016.

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HD800 + Movies = Amp?

  1. Burson Soloist

    3.1%
  2. Burson Soloist SL MK1

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Burson Soloist SL MK2

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Violectric V200

    18.8%
  5. Gustard H10

    3.1%
  6. Schiit Asgard 2

    3.1%
  7. Audeze Deckard

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. M-Stage HPA-3U

    3.1%
  9. Schiit Mjolnir 2 with LISST "Tubes"

    9.4%
  10. None of the above

    56.3%
  11. Schiit Magni 2 Uber

    3.1%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. numbercube

    numbercube Acquaintance

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    Meier Corda Jazz is good. Crossfeed is the reason why I keep it.
     
  2. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex SBAF's Imelda Marcos

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    Also consider something like the mixamp + a magni 2 so you can use Dolby headphone.

    Unless you're loaded, then go for the Smyth realiser + a higher end amp.
     
  3. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Magni 2 and 2U are discrete.
     
  4. BenjaminBore

    BenjaminBore Friend

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    Thanks again Marv. So I took a harder look at the the power output at 600ohm. My shortlist became the Asgard 2 190mw, the Magni 2 Uber 160mw, and the Gustard H10 570mw. The Soloist didn't have those specs available, though there are measures of the Conductor Virtuoso which uses the same amp internally. My feeling is that the Burson is all show, and doesn't have the grunt at higher impedances. It also has quite a bit more distortion according to the official specs, comparatively speaking.

    I bought a H10 for the price of an Asgard 2 in the UK, and hope to try one of the Schiits too. Initially I liked it a great deal, definitely better than the O2. The sound was very clean and had a solidity and punch I hadn't heard before, small details were more present, though it was a little less airy. Today I did some sighted level-matched A/B testing using some simple lossy samples comparing it to the Geek Out 450, using the latter as the DAC for the H10. There are some issues. I still hear that strong solid clean sound and the small details are still more present, but it's little warm, a little dark, the soundstage is a touch smaller, and the low level detail/reverb has diminished. The GO450 sounds a little ephemeral but has a fair amount more low level detail.

    So I still intend to try out a Schiit. The Asgard 2 has about 30mw more than the Magni 2 Uber at 600ohm which for headphones is not a small amount, though the distortion specs are twice as bad. I know that we're not supposed to here anything under 0.1% but my feeling is that that sort of thing can be indicative of overall quality.

    I have a question. What can one reasonably expect from an amp in terms of it not diminishing the signal from a DAC? In that regard will I gain much from one of the Schiit's, or would I need to go higher end? If not then I wonder if the best approach is to go with less demanding headphones and power them straight from a DACs headphone output to mitigate any deterioration of SQ. I recall John Westlake who designed the original Dacmagic, and the M-DAC, making a similar comment.

    Thanks
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2016
  5. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    With less demanding headphones, you could be better off with a DAC's headphone out. It depends on the DAC. Some DACs have horrible headamps. Take for instance IEMS. I used to run UERMs, fairly inefficient IEMs, which really liked an external amp to "power" through everything. An external amp made the UERMs sound less soft, more crisp, with more clarity. With the Andromeda IEMs, which are super efficient, I simply elected to go with the best source (DAP) I could find, the ZX2, even though I knew the ZX2 couldn't compete in power compared to portable DAPs. Sometimes it's nice having simple chains. There were certain headphones that I loved directly from the old Benchmark DAC1.

    If you do get the Asgard 2, I would be interested to hear your thoughts. I felt the Asgard 2 was bit clearer, less smoothed over, and less dark.
     
  6. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    Schiit has higher end as well, Rag. Most (if not all) high caliber members here regard HD800 as true end game with tube amplifiers. I made the ugly journey through the chinese crap to better but still mediocre western solid state stuff to tubes. Could have saved time and money instead circle jerking within 2% gains in solid state and get 80% gain with a proper tube amp. This applies without reservations to HD800 and HD650, and even to something mid-fi like MSR7.
    What I can say about 'wire with gain' is that closest I have gotten is tube amp with OT-s, despite popular beliefs among many that solid state is 'least contaminating' to sound.
     
  7. sorrodje

    sorrodje Carla Bruni's other lover - Friend

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    @Priidik : what's your current system finally ?
     
  8. BenjaminBore

    BenjaminBore Friend

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    It may take a while but I'm definitely going to try an Asgard 2 as soon as I can, I'll report back here.

    The thing I'm after "is" low level detail, so any deterioration just won't do, not sure how reasonable an expectation that is though? For me with movies it's all about hearing the ambient details and having a big soundstage to achieve immersion, hence the HD800. Which is a big step up from the Fostex TH900 in those ways, for example I find the Fostex has a very wide soundstage yet also very short and shallow.

    If the Asgard 2 doesn't measure up I'm not sure what I'll do. I need to stick with the HD800 for the above reasons, but amp prices multiply by a factor of 4-8 after this point, and then I have to mess with "balanced" cables and DACs to utilise them fully.


    Thanks Priidik. Does anyone concur, I'm not attached the solid states. It was just my understanding that they'd be the cleanest and least coloured, which is top priority for Movie/Game/TV use.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2016
  9. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    @sorrodje

    I settled with an older EC 2A3 (caps rather than interstages, Electraprint OT-s, I believe). This one is quite similar to DNA Stratus, being slightly more neutral and slightly less wet, while being hair better defined in headroom than Stratus, more precise in short. I had both for a week on my desk.
    - Front end is still the Soekris Dam with most tricks applied to it.
    - Cans are still HD800 with mods pending and some HD650 head time mixed in.
    I think I'm done as far as HP rig goes for me. I'm gathering force to enter TT arena and build some speakers. I'm closing to 30 so its time.


    And yes, watching movies from laptop is irritating to my ears ever since I moved to tubes and R-2R dac.
     
  10. sorrodje

    sorrodje Carla Bruni's other lover - Friend

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    THks @Priidik : what tubes did you use with your EC and the Stratus ?
     
  11. BenjaminBore

    BenjaminBore Friend

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    (EDIT: Everything in ORANGE turned out to be incorrect)

    So, after some delays I finally got an amp. I went from my O2 + D1 right up to a Mjolnir 2 (stock tubes) + Modi Multibit, and re-terminated all my headphones to 4-pin XLR.

    I wanted to skip the upgrade game and go budget-TOTL and be done. The Schiit lineup below this model all seemed to have one flaw or another. The Asgard 2 compressing the soundstage, or the Jotunheim's forward nature, for example.

    The Mjolnir 2's technically proficiency is incredible. It really brings things to life with the HD800. The expanded stage, incredible imaging beyond what I ever expected, and far more presence in the small details and reverb. Everything sounding distinct in various parts of the stage. Hearing things at below whisper level clearly, and quiet sounds not being stepped on by larger busier passages. I could also hear nuance in certain sounds like strings I wasn't aware of before. These aspects were not nearly as much improved with the TH900 or HD650 in comparison. I tested it all out with the Modi Multibit, with a few comparisons to the D1.

    I find this to be true with both music and film. Music tends to be busier so these benefits are almost always present. With film it may depend on the scene, but an amp upgrade is definitely worthwhile for movie watching as well as with music.

    I feel the tubes may dull some of the details though, and the Modi Multibit smooths over them itself.

    Alas, for all it's technical proficiency I am not happy with the Mojo 2. It is cold and it is abrasive. Using music mainly for experimenting and comparing I found this to be true with the TH900, and especially the HD800. The HD650 didn't seem to suffer as badly. EQ could add a little warmth, but I'm not sure it is sufficient. EQ cannot do anything about the unpleasant vocals.

    I've learned a lot, but I'm not sure where to go now that isn't down on the amplifier front. Simpler would be preferable, I'm unable to demo anything, and am unable to go through a protracted buying and selling journey. Reconsidering DAC outputs! Wasn't great from the Modi Multibit though.

    No amount of EQ with plenty of power drive it, or an amp with lots of slam can fix the HD800 thinness or lack of sub-bass/bass weight. I mean it's far better than with it than without, but it's still not up to a HD650 or TH900 in those respects. It's a bit like trying to EQ sub-bass into bookshelves because they don't have a subwoofer to go with them. The only cans that appear to have large staging, great imaging, PLUS good bass appear to be the Abyss, the HEK, and perhaps the HEX V2. Not keen on their pricing, or reliability of the latter two.


    (EDIT: I use a Parametric Equaliser)
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2016
  12. WNovizar

    WNovizar Facebook Friend

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    Since you get Mjo2, have you tried LISST?
     
  13. BenjaminBore

    BenjaminBore Friend

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    I was planning to try the LISST and look into other tubes. After coming to my final conclusions today I wasn't so sure it would be worthwhile.
     
  14. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    So you are saying that Modi MB + Mjolnir 2 is more strident and thin than your previous chain ?
    You might not tolerate the hp itself, that's on the table too.
     
  15. BenjaminBore

    BenjaminBore Friend

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    (EDIT: Everything in ORANGE turned out to be incorrect)

    Strident I believe refers to treble, but I EQ the treble down. The abrasiveness seems to come out in the mid range so I don't think that's it. Not necessarily thin, just colder.

    I'm not sure how to describe any better the abrasive nature of the mids. It's unpleasant, it's grating.

    This is compared to an iPhone 6S, O2, Audioengine D1, Geek out 450, Dragonfly Red, and a Gustard H10 I tried back in May, which was warm and dark sounding with a compressed stage and little to none of the technical performance of the Mojo2.

    Yeah I don't have the highest opinion of the HD800 "overall", but I have the TH900 to compare to so I don't think that's the issue here. Actually, something odd. The TH900 is considered V shaped, so is the M2. But I found the mids very clear and much more present when combined.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2016
  16. Out Of Your Head

    Out Of Your Head Friend

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  17. BenjaminBore

    BenjaminBore Friend

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    Thanks Priidik! I took some more time to consider your comments and experiment. I found that the problem was that I hadn't ever really heard the peaks between 5-7khz of both the HD800 and TH900 so strikingly. The abrasiveness I was describing was really stridency as you said, or shrillness. I knew about those peaks, I was aware that there would be poor synergy with this amp, so I was depending on EQ to have an amp for everything. My lack of experience with amps through me off, and the Mojo 2 being so surprisingly bright, and powerful, really highlighted those tonal issues in a way I hadn't heard before. I had to be quite heavy handed with EQ to compensate.

    In regards to surround DSP. I've tried various demos. Though very cool I have found that the pitfalls are that they either really soften the bass and treble, or they're too heavy handed with reverb effects.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2016
  18. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    The higher up you go in the amp food chain the more you hear the merits and faults of your transducer.
    Before you quit you might wanna try some synergy. Looks like you need something with lots of warmth. Maybe the Black Widow or something from Cavalli.
    Or indeed quit and try different hp altogether.
    Have you modded your HD800 yet? If not, then there's your rotting fish hidden.
     
  19. BenjaminBore

    BenjaminBore Friend

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    I've been planning to try the Super Dupont mod but until now it wasn't as pressing an issue. I'm concerned with it's, or any mod's, durability. The HD800S review on innerfidelity also re-measured Tyll's HD800 with his version of the Anax mod. It had now made the issues it originally helped much worse. Ironically in the Big Sound 2015 series not long before that people commented on liking his HD800 and that it must be the mod.

    I have been wondering where I would land on warmth/coolness side of things. My ears were raised on Sony IEMs, so I was guessing warm. I've been told the Mojo 2 is the warmest of the Schiit amps. Sheesh.

    I'm not happy with any of the headphones I have. I accepted that they're all going to be pretty flawed, so I started EQing. The TH900 were a lovely stop on the way. The HD800 thinness is my biggest issue. Maybe an amp with a higher output impedance would help on that front. Using the resistor style hp out of an old Onkyo mini stereo thickened up the sound a lot, but it also ruined everything else.

    I know one day I'll move to an open planar. It's just waiting for one with durability and value that are competitive with the HD800 staging, imaging, and resolution.

    If we had local availability of Eddie Current, or even Cavalli in the UK I would strongly consider them. The only other potentially good options we have here with local service support are Bryston, and Feliks Audio which @Rthomas put me on to. And maybe McCintosh and Sim Audio.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2016
  20. BenjaminBore

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    Thread Summary


    Is it Worth Getting an Amplifier for Movies or Gaming
    Yes it's worthwhile just the same as with music, though with different priorities. Same goes for the DAC, but that's an easier choice to make.

    How Much Difference Will it Make
    The degree to which an amp will improve things depends on the headphone. In terms of staging etc then with the HD800 abso-bloody-lutely. With the my other two 'phones I've not spent a lot of time comparing. HD650 a bit of improvement, but this is it's weakest area anyway. The Fostex TH900 is a very sensitive low impedance headphone so it will gain the least, but there is improvement. The relevant improvements are soundstage size, imaging, layering, separation, dynamics, plankton etc. I wrote the following in an earlier post:
    "far more presence in the small details and reverb. Everything sounding distinct in various parts of the stage. Hearing things at below whisper level clearly, and quiet sounds not being stepped on by larger busier passages. I could also hear nuance in certain sounds like strings I wasn't aware of before."

    What to Avoid
    There are amps and DACs that will compress the soundstage that you'll want to avoid, like the Audioengine D1, and Gustard H10. From reading about the Violectric V200, of which the H10 is a copy, it does the same thing. As far as Schiit goes all the comments I have seen indicate that their "purely solid state" amps effect the soundstage negatively, including if you use the LISST solid state "tubes". Comments usually made are that they are forward sounding, have a 3-blob soundstage, or compress the soundstage.

    Also the headphone outputs of speaker amplifiers have an incredibly high output impedance, which will screw up your sound three ways from Sunday.

    What Are My Options and Why
    As of now, bearing in mind this is mostly based on reading and not listening, within Europe I would go for a Schiit amp "with tubes" as the best trade off. The reasons being their value for money, overall performance, and I've not come across negative comments regarding their soundstage as I did for their solid state amps. The catch is that I feel that the tubes in the Mjolnir 2 for example veil details somewhat.

    Putting tonal synergy aside: I am happy with the Mjolnir 2. Based on what I have learned and read if I were starting again I would also consider the Lyr 2, Valhalla 2, maybe the Vali 2. Feliks Audio may be a possibility but I've not read enough about them yet. Performance and price aside if I had to go solid state I would consider the Matrix M-Stage, the Lehmann BCL, and the Bryston BHA-1.

    (((EDIT 17/02/17: Later in the thread I tried LISST solid state tubes with the Mjolnir 2. Imaging accuracy improved but stage size was a little smaller, and flat depth-wise. But depth with the tubes wasn't real depth, just a vague sense of it. Bass, and especially clarity and detail, improved with LISST. That engaging character of using tubes I would say is nice for music but less so for movies.

    So for the purpose of movie watching etc I strongly leaned toward the solid state LISST tubes, though you may feel that you prefer the alternate trade off of tubes. In hindsight I would also recommend most of the Schiit solid state amplifier range, in particular the bigger hotter higher voltage output ones (Asgard 2, Lyr 2 w/LISST, Mjolnir 2 w/LISST, Ragnarok) where it comes to the high impedance open back dynamics as from Sennheiser, AKG, and beyerdynamic.

    My feeling now is that any descriptions of Schiit solid state amps sounding forward or flat in depth are due to them just being straight-up good accurate amplifiers, and that these terms are just the natural characteristics of headphone technology. I expect the Jotenheim is an exception to this due it's poor tonal accuracy. Perhaps some of the TOTL tubes amps from the USA have the best of both worlds, in which case one of those could theoretically be the ideal.

    My current and likely final chain is the Optical S/PDIF -> Behringer DEQ2496 digital parametric equaliser -> Schiit Modi Multibit -> Schiit Mjolnir 2 w/LISST -> Sennheiser HD800. And it sounds bloody amazing, like a home theatre on your head:
    [​IMG]
    )))

    If you're adventurous and have a high impedance dynamic headphone you can sometimes attach them directly to speaker amplifier outputs with adapters, but you may have to re-terminate your connector so that the grounds do not get crossed. You can use other types of headphones too but it gets more complicated. See here for further details: https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/tutorials/power-amp-adapter/

    What About The Headphones
    From reading around if I were looking for movie/gaming headphones purely based on imaging and soundstage I would go for open back headphones and these are the ones I would look at: AKG K700 series, Hifiman 400S/560/HEX/HEK, Sennheiser HD6x0M(modded)/HD700/HD800/HD800S, Abyss 1266. Probably beyerdynamics too, and maybe the new MrSpeakers Ether Flow.

    Is There Anything Better
    A question I still have is that of the illusive stage depth. Headphones are inherently bad at this, and I have perceived very little at best within the limited things I have tried. Supposedly OTL Tube amps have this characteristic more than others, particularly top of the line ones. How or why I've no idea at this time.

    In terms of DSP solutions they can indeed give you positional information that works as advertised, but it's at the cost of softening the treble and bass. Absolutely worth it for competitive gaming, otherwise it'll be preference. You can find demos on youtube you can listen to with your headphones. Some other approaches can be pleasant, but reverb heavy. Crossfeed offers no benefit.

    There's an incredible amount of money behind research to make your headphones sound like speakers in a room. I'm sure they'll eventually figure it out. But what form it will take, and how long it takes to get here are pretty big question marks. Don't hold your breathe.

    EDIT: The AKG N90Q appears to be the first of such headphones. It has an in-built automated calibration using chirping sounds and internal microphones to build a HRTF of your ears and head. It has a surround mode where it uses that information to increase the soundstage size. Reviews are pending.

    Paul Barton from PSB has stated that he is working on a TOTL headphone, and that one of the things he is trying to achieve is bringing the sound "outside of the head".

    Thanks For Reading
    I hope this is helpful to anyone in future who is coming to headphones from the gaming or home cinema side of things.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2017

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