Holo Audio - Spring DAC - Level 3 - "Kitsune Tuned Edition" - Impressions & Reviews

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by Torq, Nov 7, 2016.

  1. MusicEar

    MusicEar New

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    Hi Torq, I just ordered the Holo Spring Audio DAC, I saw you use Auralic Aries, I own one and I have a question, does Aries able to playback DSD256 using Holo Spring Audio DAC via using USB input? Thanks
     
  2. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    I was originally going to compare the Aqua LaScala Mk II to Yggdrasil as part of my "Life after Yggdrasil?" thread. There's a long story behind why I ultimately decided not to do that via the US dealer/distributor and that won't add any value here. However, subsequently I've had the opportunity to listen to it properly via other avenues and while it was very good indeed, there was nothing about it that made me want to buy one over another Yggdrasil. This has been a constant theme with me and PCM-1704-based DACs though.

    Even if the units were the same price, which they're definitely not, I'd still opt for Yggdrasil.

    I should make it clear that it was not the very latest "Optologic" equipped version (which I was under the impression was going to be relabeled "Mk III" to avoid confusion, but apparently not) and that could, of course, shift things markedly.

    Also, I've not had the opportunity to directly compare the Aqua unit to the Spring DAC, but the Spring remains my favorite NOS R2R DAC to date (to be fair, I've not compared the Spring to the Metrum Pavane directly either, and that was the former front-runner ... something I'll rectify later this month with a bit of luck).

    Differences are minimal but audible if you're listening for them. Think in terms of it being the last 2-3%. I don't think I'd notice if I was listening purely for pleasure. If I bought another one I'd likely go with the Level 1.
     
  3. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    You know, I can't remember for sure. If I make it home this evening I can test it directly.
     
  4. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    So, I just got done testing this.

    Assuming you're on the latest firmware, and we're talking about the full-blown Aries, not the "mini", then yes it will output DSD256 to the Spring DAC via USB. The one caveat is that you have to tell the Aries to use DoP as the output format. This does NOT change the DSD data received by the Holo unit, merely the protocol that carries said data (the post-DoP extraction bit-stream is identical to a native DSD stream).

    If you DON'T enable DoP on the Aries in this case, then DSD256 winds up getting converted to 24/176.4 PCM.
     
  5. MusicEar

    MusicEar New

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    Previously, I've a Gustard A20H DAC and I've trouble making Aries to work in DSD256. I wrote to Auralic CEO, designer Xuanqian Wang and he told me when Aries playback DSD256, it will switch to native DSD while DSD64/DSD128 will always in DoP mode. The settings must be in DoP mode otherwise it will convert DSD to PCM. He also told me due to firmware compatibility issue in the U8 XMOS USB chipset found in Gustard, it cannot work in DSD256 natively.

    This is indeed a good news that Holo Audio Spring DAC which also using a U8 XMOS USB chipset can work with Aries in DSD256. Can't wait to try once I receive it! Thanks Torq!
     
  6. MusicEar

    MusicEar New

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    Hi Torq,
    I managed to setup the Holo Spring with Auralic Aries, everything playing fine except DSD256. Yes it can playback DSD256 but I get nasty pop when I start playing DSD256, pause or play the next format, example a PCM. The nasty pop is loud enough that may damage the amp or speakers. Did you experience this? At the moment I've to lower down the volume before playing it and never to switch tracks to PCM.
     
  7. Greg121986

    Greg121986 Almost "Made"

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    I just received notice that my Holo Spring L3 has shipped. It should arrive this week. I am beyond excitement!!!
     
  8. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    I don't get any loud pops at all with either the Aries or the Singxer SU-1.

    I sometimes get some low-level clicks and other noises during either DSD sample rate changes or when switching between DSD and PCM. This is more pronounced and more frequent via the SU-1/I2S interface than it is via the Aries. It's also not by any means unique to the Holo Audio unit.
     
  9. perkele

    perkele Acquaintance

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    You might wanna save your energy for listening sessions and writing impressions rather than accumulating moist to your pants and posting delivery status. Just sayin'.
     
  10. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    Agree 100% on Holo Spring being best NOS I have heard and better than the softer Pavane too. Still there is no reason to really buy it over the Gungnir Multibit, Yggdrasil or better DS implementations unless you really hate treble, hate proper percussive attack, and hate air while liking colored, slightly boosted and warm bass. The Holo Spring is still a NOS DAC, still sounds off, has imprecise staging, and still sounds like a minimum phase filter; it's just not actually bad compared to what else you could buy like PCM1704s or Mytek gear.

    No amounts of upgrades will fix this about the Holo Spring unless the manufacturer decides to make an oversampling filter other than piece of shit tacked on one that sounds like total ass and is worse than the Schiit Modis.
     
  11. MusicEar

    MusicEar New

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    I can't agreed more that NOS is subjectively sound better than OS. The principle underlying mechanisms of over-sampling is to shift the sampling noise (image) as far away from the audio band so that it can be easily filter with a much gentler digital filter.

    However, it created its own artifacts like transients intermodulation distortion, i.e, the impulse response 'ringing', and 'smearing effects' this have obvious impact subjectively than the sampling noise (image). So there's a compromise here. Going higher sampling rate above 44.1k helps a lot. In my opinion, NOS allows me for the first time to playback PCM in its native form without over-sampling! If the Sampling noise (image) does not bother you, than by all mean play it back in NOS, even in 44.1k natively, it sounds gorgeous!
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2017
  12. Dev

    Dev New

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    I have been quiet interested in this DAC and have gone through all the details in the past 15 pages. Being a Yggdrasil (and a couple of other SD DACs) owner, I am still undecided to get one or not. Couple of questions

    1. Has anybody tried the NOS mode and upsampling it in the software with programs like HQP ? It seems like other DACs, like the T+A DAC8 DSD benefits significantly when used in NOS mode and upsampling it in HQP to DSD512. The Holo can also do DSD512 (with Windows) and wondering if anybody has tried it yet or at the least upsample to DSD256 ? Maybe this way we get the benefit of both NOS and OS ?

    2. There was a post couple of pages earlier that being R2R DAC, it cannot do direct DSD and has to convert to PCM for analog conversion. It seems like the designer tells the opposite and it indeed can do discreet DSD without the need to convert DSD bitstream to PCM. What is the consensus on this ?

    3. I have gone through the Kitsune website but haven't found any information on the kind of clocks being used and hence it seems like a DDC like Singrex SU1 can benefit immensely. Can anybody tell know much improvement the SU1 brings in their system ?
     
  13. mscott58

    mscott58 Friend

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    Dev - Great first post, but please be sure to introduce yourself in the proper place here on SBAF as well. (http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/new-members-introduce-yourself.17/)

    I can comment on the third of your questions. I recently sourced an SU-1 and am now running my Spring L3 via the Singxer using I2S. While it's still early days, and I haven't yet done direct A/B comps, I am pleased with the addition of the SU-1 to the system. It's a relatively low investment (comparatively). More to come on the details, but I'm glad I got the SU-1. Will play with HDMI cables later, but that's a subject for a different day.

    Cheers
     
  14. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    @Dev I personally think HQP as a player sounds bad (if you believe software can have a sound), and if you're going to upsample with it, you may as well just not bother with the Spring and stick to Yggdrasil. Yggdrasil will have a better sounding filter than anything HQP puts out, even the supposed closed form filter in HQP. Your money is better spent on a good SPDIF or AES source for Yggdrasil, one that doesn't use USB at all, rather than get a different DAC. If you aren't a non-oversampling fan and getting a DAC just for that purpose, stick to Schiit.
     
  15. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    For #2, please go back and re-read this: http://www.superbestaudiofriends.or...-impressions-reviews.3172/page-13#post-102197

    This is not a matter of consensus. The "native" aspect refers to sending DSD data natively to the DAC instead of in a PCM wrapper (known as DoP). The maker himself says DSD is converted to PCM.

    Resistor ladders cannot process DSD. Well I guess they could if you used one rung of the ladder and ran it at extremely high speed, and then added an accumulator and modulator circuit to get voltage values out of it. But this approach would be super retarded and probably wouldn't work for the megahertz frequencies required.

    There is another more subtle argument that really aren't any true one-bit solutions anyway since all existing chips have internal architectures that seem to be a hybrid of multi-bit and delta-sigma anyway.

    Bottom line is that it's all bullshit marketing. Native or no native, what matters is how it sounds.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2017
  16. Dev

    Dev New

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    From my personal experience, the Schiit sounds terrible when upsamped in HQP. I much prefer Mr Mofat's mega-burrito filter and leave the files untouched, apart from converting DSD to 192k pcm. For computer audio, I don't think there is enough h/w available to go the SPDIF/AES (Lynx maybe ?) but they can sound better though. I was very much interested in the AOIP route, so one option is to get the Rednet.
    Between, I don't use HQP anymore. Daphile upsampling sounds much better to my ears.

    From the designer's quote below, I failed to understand. He clearly says in NOS mode, there is no oversampling, no conversion. If you send native DSD bitsteam data, how will it do D2A without PCM conversion ? Or maybe its poor choice of words....or maybe pure marketing ;)

    The other question to ask is if all these are not true, then why would the Holo have two R2R networks - one for PCM and one for DSD ? Cannot you convert DSD to PCM in some way and use a single R2R ?

    "
    Let's go back to Spring. If Spring works in 'NOS' mode. There is no
    oversampling, no conversion, just the original data doing the final digital
    to analog conversion. I will not explain how it does PCM conversion, you
    should already know quite well about it. There is a lot of resistor ladder
    DAC, they are born to do this. I just explain how Spring can do 'discrete
    DSD conversion'. Actually it is like DCS and CHORD. If you looking to DCS
    and CHORD's pcb, you will find 'discrete DSD conversion' is also using
    switches and precision resistors, like resistor ladder dacs. So, no matter
    it is 'discrete DSD conversion' or 'discrete PCM conversion', they all use
    the same discrete devices. Just work in different architecture. That makes
    possible to combine these two modes in one device.

    "


    Yeah, very true - the final result is all it matters. However, there are DACs which can sound one format, say DSD better than other, PCM, since they are specifically optimized for it.
     
  17. gbeast

    gbeast Mighty Moral Power Ranger

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    I am currently ABing the Holo Spring DAC vs The PAVANE.

    So At first I was very discouraged. I sold my HD800(hate that hp or at least one not modded as good as @johnjen s and mine wasn't), Sold the Hifiman Edition X v.2 (kinda miss it), thought I was going to have the Eikon and Atticus in time to use them as a tool but all I have is my modded HD650.

    The differences are notable even with only the 650. But I had to send AES to both the Pavane and the Spring at the same time in order to switch fast enough to hear the differences because I wasn't catching them. I was thinking... well there goes a waste of time plus I only have one week and my room is not treated so my monitors won't do squat (when I move I will treat a room down the line). So I will continue testing. This is a lot more interesting than my Cayin vs HP-1 loaner but I am interested in that too yet only have so little time because both landed in house on the same exact day.

    I will update this thread but what I will post for now is that the Holo is a bit more rich in the upper midrange, not only in balance but also how the sounds resonate. Its a little more lit. Transparency on both are top notch. The Pavane does better at keeping the instruments from blending, especially when the volume swells and it also sounds a little more evenly layed out because the individual instruments have better space around them slightly. I won't say another word until after its all said and done apart from the fact that my ears are more accustomed to the Pavane so it sounds less colored while the Holo is more engaging in the mids. I like both of them though. The Holo is a good piece of gear to me so far I just wish I had more revealing cans and more time to make this a little easier. Things like bass, sound stage depth, dynamics etc etc have yet to be discovered but today is the day where I can honestly attest to some differences. Now there is no turning back even blind testing myself (wifes help).
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2017
  18. johnjen

    johnjen Doesn’t want to be here but keeps posting anyways

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    Ya know,
    If you can make this weekends meet there will be multiple systems all linked together over a dante network feeding a variety of dacs (Yggdrasil, Theta, Holo Spring, and other MultiBit dacs etc.) and able to send the same file to any dac or all simultaneously, all courtesy of Atomic Bob and the switch he's bringing along with his latest killer ministack.

    And Musigboys setup along with my 800's should also provide a few interesting reactions as well.

    It should be a meet to remember.
    And yeah the sooperbole is fierce competition but for us audiophools this is WAY more kewl.

    JJ :)
     
  19. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    After further consideration, and I will say more on this later, I find the Pavane does much better with staging/layering and has a more nuanced, less brute-force or forward, sound. I think the Pavane is the better DAC. The Menuet and Spring are closer in performance, but the Menuet suffers if you use SE output. Both balanced and via AES, it's a toss up to whether you prefer a heavier, forward sound (Spring) or a more nuanced, but slightly soft and laid-back sound (Menuet). The Pavane seems to correct the Menuet's issues.

    Of course, with a couple beers and an unfamiliar amp, the Pavane and Spring sound pretty damn similar...
     
  20. gbeast

    gbeast Mighty Moral Power Ranger

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    With the Dante system is how I was able to send signal to both DACs here. I would love to go and would pick that over the Superbowl but its not really gonna happen. Hey this should be totally in a PM but if I ever buy another 800 I would pay you to mod mine.
     

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