Life after Yggdrasil: Watering the Ash

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by Torq, Mar 1, 2017.

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  1. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    Copper or aluminium does practically nothing to passing magnetic fields, in this regard steel case is much better shield.
    An E-I or even worse, C-core transformer should be housed in a steel case near sensible circuitry. I've had my share of issues with managing transformer stray fields in my builds.
    From here on I weld steel cases for my builds :p.
    Imo also steel is fine for Faraday cage purpose as Torq pointed out in audio use.
    In the end it's only attenuation, not elimination.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2017
  2. bengo

    bengo Friend

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    Luckily there was enough extra in the loaner fund to progress the SBAF GM / selective breeding programme to the next level... one step closer to creating the "perfect audiophile" :D
    [​IMG]
     
  3. Grahad2

    Grahad2 Red eyes from too much anime

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    Outer layer of steel and inner layer of mu metal?

    I think LHLabs did have mu metal in their Geek Pulse series.
     
  4. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    Certainly the case for a static magnetic field.
     
  5. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    And you can operate SQUIDS in your dac.
     
  6. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    Induced field is in practice too weak for 50/60Hz to be effective. Eddy current contribution is significant in higher frequencies, sure.
     
  7. bengo

    bengo Friend

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    I was thinking you could measure any noise at the DAC(s) output while playing zeros.

    Interesting (to me at least) as it gives a somewhat objective way to compare the possibly-audible effects of power conditioning / mains isolating transformers, stupid fancy AC cables and whatnot. You could also compare how different DACs deal with EMI. Of course, it won't tell you why the better one is better - because of the copper case or superior circuit design... :)
     
  8. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    I think it's been implied several times but not explicitly stated, but blocking electrical and magnetic fields is not the same thing. The popular Faraday cage for example is only useful for electrical fields.

    Placement/proximity of "noisy" components is important, and also worth mentioning is orientation. E-core transformers for example radiate more from the bell ends than the sides.
     
  9. KarlStromberg

    KarlStromberg New

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    I am considering to buy an Yggdrasil for my EC ZDS at the moment, but also found an offer for Holo Spring DAC. Since it doesn't mention any "level", I guess it's the original one without any modifications. Has anyone heard that one in comparison to the L2 and L3 editions? And would it be a good partner to the ZDS?
     
  10. strangecargo

    strangecargo Acquaintance

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    I think in many implementations, it isn't multiple chips being stacked, but multiple output channels from the same chip. For example, the ES9028PRO has 8 output channels. A stereo DAC implementation using this chip can stack 4 output channels per stereo channel, supposedly improving SNR by 6dB over using a single channel (at least according to Benchmark's overview of the DAC3).
     
  11. 9suns

    9suns [insert unearned title here]

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    Don't know if post this here, but it called my attention:

    http://www.linear.com/product/LTC2380-24

    Yes, I know, not a DAC chip, not even made for audio, but 24 bit ENOB ADC, no delta sigma but SAR, the equivalent of R2R on ADC chips.
    Who knows, maybe 24bit ENOB R2R audio DAC chips will become available sooner than imagined...
     
  12. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    Unless I'm reading the data sheet incorrectly, that only realizes anywhere near it's claimed 24-bit resolution at a sample rate of THIRTY samples a second. At what would be useful audio sampling speeds it's hovering just above 16-bit ENOB.

    So they just need to make it 14,000 times faster while preserving it's DR, to get to Redbook sample rates. An 18,000 time to hit the lowest "high resolution" (where 24-bit comes in) spec.
     
  13. Mr Underhill

    Mr Underhill New

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    Border Patrol DAC

    In a post above it was posited that my enthusiasm for this DAC may be that of an ingénue. Whilst my thoughts may have been due to a first flush enthusiasm I thought I would post a brief follow up. I did think that my positive comments about the Yggdrasil were not met in a similar way, but hay hoe.

    I did enjoy the comment above that the 1543 chip is only good for 13/14 bits of resolution. I have heard similar things said about vinyl. A few weeks ago I was listening to a Naim/Focal system using the Statement amps. The source for most of the evening was the Naim NDS and, while I prefer my own system, it was doing things I found interesting. However, it was when the source was changed to vinyl that the whole thing really came to life, that turntable was a tangerined Stiletto LP12 (http://tangerineaudio.com/). Am I claiming that the BP DAC is up to this, I suspect not - but I will be finding out in the coming months.

    A friend popped over yesterday. He agreed that my digital had never sounded better. I played him the Roger Waters live version of The Wall. After a track he asked me if it was an LP or CD rip .....it was Qobuz!

    I thought I would do some comparative listening, my sources being played through my Raspberry Pi 3, powered by an R-Core LPSU running piCorePlayer: just LMS.

    Sources:
    U: StartTech USB extender + USB sticks.
    Q: Qobuz.

    Quality:
    9624 LP rip
    16/44.1 CD Rip
    16/44.1 Q

    Note: Although Qobuz states their files are CD quality they are never reported by LMS as 1411kbps, normally 800 - 1200 range.

    My bias would be that U > Q and 9624 > 1644.

    In the event, things were less straightforward:

    10cc
    Best Of - The Early Years vs 10 cc (former album not on Q)
    Rubber Bullets
    4416 vs 4416
    U vs Q
    Winner: Q

    Alison Moyet - Alf
    Love Resurrection
    U vs Q
    9624 vs 4416 (2011 Remastered)
    U - by a mile
    LP can be slightly sharp - cymbals
    CD very sharp consistently

    Duran Duran - Rio
    Rio
    U vs Q
    9624 vs 4416 (2009 Remastered)
    Q - More detailed and dynamic.

    Jeff Beck - Wired
    Led Boots
    U vs Q
    9624 vs 4416
    Q - More detailed and dynamic.

    Jethro Tull - North Sea Oil
    Not on Q

    Jethro Tull - Bursting Out
    No Lullaby
    U vs U vs Q
    9624 vs 4416 vs 4416
    U 9624 - Tonally better.
    U 4416 > Q 4416

    Tears for Fears - The Seeds of Love
    Woman In Chains
    U vs U vs Q
    9624 vs 4416 vs 4416
    U 9624 = U 4416 (detail different but equally excellent)

    Conclusion

    I am very happy with the Border Patrol DAC. It really has allowed my system to sing. I fully accept that it is not technically superb, it IS musically excellent.

    In terms of the which file source is best I THINK what i am hearing is telling me that the quality of the source files is king. For instance, my copy of 10cc Rubber Bullets is from a very early Best Of CD, the Qobuz version is from a 'proper' album; I suspect it is simply better, that is what I hear. Equally, my pressing of Duran Duran - Rio is not one of the best.

    Most of my albums have been with me for MANY years. I have ripped approx 10% of my 3k LPs, but this is a time consuming process. I left Jethro Tull's North Sea Oil in the list above to highlight an issue, this is one of my favourite Tull albums, but it is NOT on Qobuz.

    Tears for Fears - The Seeds of Love is a superb album. I have an excellent vinyl and CD copy. Comparing these with Qobuz left the latter in the shade, but only slightly.

    I will state that the StarTech/USB solution is easily & demonstrably better than using my Synology NAS, also running LMS.

    I am VERY impressed with the quality of music i am now streaming. Although I do enjoy my LP12/Aro/Geddon would I go down this route today? I will be getting together with some friends to do some listening with my system, before heading over to repeat the exercise, but with a friend's Stilletoed LP12.


    Finally
    Thank you for this thread. It is excellent and encouraged me to borrow a Yggdrasil and then the Lampizator. Ultimately I think there is a limit to the number of DACs you can audition, as there is the rest of your life going on! I am very happy with my result.

    M
     
  14. landroni

    landroni Friend

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    @Mr Underhill

    You seem to be promoting quite enthusiastically the Border Patrol DAC ever since you've joined, with little other activity. Please consider introducing yourself here:
    http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/new-members-introduce-yourself.17/

    And if you haven't done so already, make sure to read the rules:
    http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/must-read-for-new-members.3/


    ````
    Until some trusted ears from here get a chance to hear the Border Patrol, you will have to forgive our innate scepticism. Whatever the implementation, the TDA1543 remains an obsolete*, dirt-cheap under 1 buck D/A IC with questionable resolution and linearity characteristics to compete with SOTA products. It is strange to select an obsolete chip for a (serious) new design, and stranger still to have that "entry-level"** unit fetch a $1K price tag.***

    I will also note that it is remarkable that you feed this chip 24-bit material when the chip is nominally 16-bit and effectively resolves only 13-14 bits. If you're hearing differences, it is easy to assume that they come from different masters (LP vs CD) rather than having anything to do with the D/A IC fully resolving the LP material. A more honest comparison would be if you downconverted the LP rips from 24 to 16 bits, and compare those two samples with each other.

    * In the right, non-JA sense of the word, i.e. no longer under production.
    ** This may be entry level for sheikhs, but for ordinary SBAF Joes entry-level ballparks at 100 bucks, maybe 250 if you can stretch. A true entry-level TDA1543 design is the
    SPS DAC3 which can be obtained for 200-ish bucks.
    *** For the "fun" of it, the pricing tactics of Border Patrol are questionable. So this unit -- with default power supply -- comes with USB
    or SPDIF In at $1K, or both USB and SPDIF at $1.5K. f**k that. It's not even clear if it's Coax or Optical SPDIF. But if you get the betterer PSU, hike that by an additional 350 bucks. Which brings us to $1.8K for a "fully loaded" phat version of the DAC.
    At that point we're outside Gungnir MB pricing territory, and are half-a-month-of-pay away from an Yggdrasil, which not only gives you BOTH USB and SPDIF, but also BNC SPDIF and AES/EBU XLR. Now imagine if Schiit charged us 500$ for each additional input to their flagship (entry-level?) DAC, and say 700$ for the "crown" AES connection... And imagine what the price of the Border Patrol DAC would have been had it used, like Yggdrasil, 100$ chips, and four of them to boot...
     
  15. Mr Underhill

    Mr Underhill New

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    landroni

    I completely understand. I am a stranger here. If anyone chooses to give it a go I will be interested in their view.

    WRT 24-bit files: Torq was on the money - anything above 16 bit is just thrown away.

    M
     
  16. winders

    winders boomer

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    I have a hard time trusting anyone who thinks that, after turning on his amps, that disconnecting and reconnecting the SPDIF cable from his Singxer F-1/Border Patrol DAC somehow makes a positive difference in sound quality.

    I am not making that up.....
     
  17. TonyNewman

    TonyNewman Validated by Tyll removing Utopia from WOF

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    My favorite is the joker that told me to 'rest' my tubes after they were shipped to me. Apparently the physical movement of the tubes requires that they have a nice lie down before use. Cable burn in doesn't come close to that level of absurdity.
     
  18. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    It has been suggested that simply disconnecting and reconnecting may be responsible for heard cable differences. Better connection, removal of oxide layer etc etc. Some audiophoolery actually works, just not for the reason assumed.

    You know the thing when you have something that does not work, you take it apart, fail to find anything wrong with it, put it back together and... it works ever after? Ahhh... life's mysteries! :D
     
  19. winders

    winders boomer

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    But, he says it makes a difference every time he turns it on! It's not about removing oxidation. It's not about something that is assembled incorrectly or that needs to be reseated. It's completely irrational.....
     
  20. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    Expletives!
     

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