Life after Yggdrasil: Watering the Ash

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by Torq, Mar 1, 2017.

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  1. Darren G

    Darren G Friend

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    I think it is cool that Mr Underhill is enjoying the DAC, and it could also be that we don't all have exactly the same auditory experiences.

    The only caveat is I have bought a lot of gear that, once the honeymoon phase wore off, ended with me not wanting to listen. It doesn't take much either. Subtle annoying traits have a way of coming to the forefront over time. I've learned I'm much happier with gear that leans toward the euphonic pleasant side, even if it's not perfect/accurate. This is the not science part, and why it's valuable to read what others find enjoyable over the long run.

    --

    Side story, but at one point in time I was writing an MPEG-1 decoder (software only). There wasn't much content at that point in time, a few Paramount videos. Still, digital video, cool stuff right? The problem was, sitting there looking at it day after day, eventually I couldn't help but see the horrendous quantization noise (especially apparent in backgrounds, what should have been smooth gradients, I saw nothing but macro blocks), and soon after that, the motion artifacts drove me loopy - it was terrible. Needed some dithering, analog blur, because all I ended up seeing was the digital repetitiveness, and not the movies.

    The thing is anyone who saw it for the first time didn't see it. Their initial impression was 'it's so clear!' Yea well let me know how you feel after you've spent many more hours watching.

    For me it is the same with audio gear. Initial impressions can be misleading. What separates the 'golden-ear' listeners, or at least trusted reviewers, is their ability to pick up and point out those repetitive and annoying audio traits that others will eventually pick up on too. And then, listen much less.
     
  2. landroni

    landroni Friend

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    I will only plug that it's never -- or at least only partially -- about "golden ears", or "golden eyes". It's all about brain processing and pattern spotting, where training also comes in. In the end it's not the ears or the eyes themselves that you train to spot these things (e.g. by spending many hours watching), but it's your brain.
     
  3. GoodEnoughGear

    GoodEnoughGear Evil Dr. Shultz‎

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    This! Fast A/B switching is nigh pointless, I can't tell differences unless they're so blatant its ridiculous. But relax and listen, and the nuances pile up over time, digititus becomes apparent (and annoying) and fatigue sets in. Once it's crept up on you you can recognize it much more instantaneously later, and quantify and qualify it (good and bad).

    I suppose like anything else it comes down to practice, practice, practice. Lots of gear, lots of time. Lots of money!

    So despite the advice of 'elders' to evaluate gear at length and make our 'own' choices, many of us need to go on faith because we lack one of these elements in abundance. Usually money and therefor gear.

    Thank god for SBAF and may the devil take Head-Fi.
     
  4. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    Do you really mean fast switching?

    As I understand it, it just means that the change-over time must be fast, eg, one switch-flip, A to B or B to A. It does not mean that the listening periods have to be short. In other words, you can listen for a week, but there should not be five minutes while we disconnect, swap out and swap in gear.

    I've never taken part in proper blind testing: this is just what I understand and what makes sense to me, and what, to me, feels like it could be useful, rather than some sort of endurance test for the listener. Five-second samples is fine for comparing that instance of symbol sheen or decay: it has its place, but it is not comparing the musicality or the experience, and I don't think it is meant to be. I call it forensic listening.

    I think most gearphiles/audiophiles who do gear-related critical listening do both ( or possibly even more!) sorts of listening.
     
  5. Mr Underhill

    Mr Underhill New

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    Hi Darren,

    Thanks for that ....and I agree. I have experienced this as well. If I do tire I will report that back as well - as I did elsewhere with a Mutec MC+3 I owned for a while. Although, on reflection I think the issue I had was elsewhere, and the Mutec was amplifying it.

    The Yggdrasil vs Border Patrol comparison got me thinking about where I am on the 'detail' vs 'pleasant' spectrum. I think if I was fully for euphonics then I would have bought the Lampizator. Currently the BP is giving me, in my system, the best of both - within the constraints of the chip, i.e. no hidef.

    WRT your MPEG recollection: With my HiFi I occasionally drag friends in to have a listen and frequently get the comment, 'It is really good, but it was before'. I believe we are all somewhat OCD!

    A couple of my friends are also recording engineers. They were somewhat shocked when i demonstrated that the same file sounded different when hosted differently on the same network ...led to an interesting conversation.

    Cheers,

    M
     
  6. landroni

    landroni Friend

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    While I can see why this approach would work in instantaneous ABX (using say 5- or 10-sec samples), I'm not sure what would be the interest of doing so in extended ABX. So let's say you've listened to two full albums during 2 hours, and as you've finished the last song of the 2nd album, why would you want to quickly, immediately switch-flip to the first first song on the 1st album? Even if you did so, chances are it would still end up being irrelevant if the first song starts with a 5 second silence passage...

    I think the whole idea of extended ABX is to get yourself out of this stressful instantaneous ABX mentality "must, compare, now, quickly, and must find differences, right here, right now!" -- which isn't at all representative of how humans listen to music in typical conditions* --, and allow yourself to sit back and relax so as to get a more -- let's call it -- "overall" idea of what you find "consistently" different between two pieces of gear. This could be fatigue, (inexplicable and undefinable) enjoyment, an annoying and repetitive FR quirk, persistent distortion characteristics, etc.

    * or at the very least that's definitely not how I usually listen to say Kind of Blue or Kleiber's take on Beethoven's 6th
     
  7. johnjen

    johnjen Doesn’t want to be here but keeps posting anyways

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    And as an added bit to consider.

    I have repeatedly found that it takes ≈1/2 hr (±1/4hr) of continual listening before the sound field comes into sharper focus.
    This is also usually followed up by other noticeable/observable shifts at ≈1-1.25hrs. of again, continuous listening without removal of the headphones.

    Some may not notice this 'shift' after 'sufficient' head time, but I know several who do, besides myself.

    Just something to see if it makes any difference, or not.

    JJ
     
  8. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

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    Shortcomings in both visual and auditory lossy compression may be experienced after learning the specific annoying traits. Once learned it is very hard to ignore. Same applies to the annoying traits of hardware, both visual and auditory as @Darren G posits. Long term evaluation is often necessary to find those pleasing or fatiguing traits when assessing higher end equipment, with some notable exceptions.

    @Thad E Ginathom you have it correct. Ability to switch between two devices being compared without mental distraction. The smaller the differences the more easily such distractions obfuscate those differences.

    My ABX box has no time limits to make comparisons. Depending on the type of trait revealing differences I may listen to several entire songs or possibly just a loop on a short segment from the song that has ability to stimulate the issue examined. You are correct that ABX comparison is a labor of experimentation and not as much fun as sitting back to enjoy a listening session without a specific overriding purpose.

    Now that I have experienced this shift it only takes 5 minutes or so for me usually. Extremely stressful days take longer to mentally let go of the stressful thoughts and migrate to a mental space allowing shift to enjoyment of musical immersion.
     
  9. Mshenay

    Mshenay Barred from loaner program. DON'T SEND ME GEAR.

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    This... all of this. It took me a LONG time before I could hear the difference between stuff. And even now I still like to demo something exclusively for a good week solid before I switch, but FAST A/B Switching really is pointless, because the nuances pile up. In fact what I've found is I notice more in the song, the less I pay attention to it. When I relax and just listen, then the nuanced details stand out at me more, I've had the most surprising details pop out at me while listening to new gear when I didn't expect them.

    But, IF you can and your are demo'ing live with a new product first before you compare it to what you own.

    Also, I've got a Audio GD NFB10ES2 and while it's been sufficient for me I need to upgrade... I'd imagine a $1500 budget should be worth while. I need a new dac and amp, while I like Audio GD products [built like brick fkn shithouse] I'm open to others.

    Based on Marvey's chart and the REALLY scary measurements I saw of the Audio GD I think it might be time for me to depart from them, but is their Master 11 worth owning? Or for the same cash what would be better, my collection is purely redbook so I too don't care about DSD playback... Based on all the positivity I've sen here, I think I want to shoot for a second hand or b-stock Gungnir Multibit. and then grabbing a good balanced Solid State with a tube pre amp maybe... or I might just run my Ember II into what ever SS I grab
     
  10. Mr Underhill

    Mr Underhill New

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    Well the Border Patrol is continuing to work well, and giving me excellent music.

    I thought I would post this as I have been wrestling with an issue for about a year, and I solved it a few days ago. I had looked at an array of potential solutions, including: Cables; PSUs; DACs etc.

    In general the issue I was hearing was:

    >Small number of tracks/albums with hard sibilants (e.g. Tarzan)
    >Cymbals being splashy & hard
    >General feeling of edge

    This was a big part of the reason I started looking at alternative DACs.

    The changes I was making were increasing transparency & detail, and reduced the sibilance a bit, but they were not hitting the nail squarely on the head.

    I noted that by simply disconnecting my spdif that connected my Singxer-F1 to my DAC & re-attaching it I was addressing some sharpness in my sound, this would then return some time later. This was repeatable.

    I then bought an Uptone LPS-1 PSU for my microRendu and got a high pitched warbling wail through my speakers. I had a line isolator between my DAC & pre-amp; for reasons I won't go into now. I speculate that I had closed off my earthing route and hence the delightful noise, removing the isolator solved the issue.

    Drawing together the observations above, and above all the removal of sharpness when I disconnected and reconnected the spdif between F1 and DAC I did the following:

    1. Routed all my mains cables ensuring none ran alongside signal cables - just crossed perpendicularly where necessary;
    2. Ran an earthing cable from my DAC to my pre-amp;
    3. Ran an earthing cable from my F1 to my pre-amp.

    Result: Sharpness gone.

    Overall a layer of hash has gone. Bass lines that were difficult to follow are easier to track. Sharp cymbals now ring naturally. Some lyrics are clearer ...etc.

    Don't get me wrong. This isn't a Damascene conversion, my system has been getting better and more transparent over the last year already, but this is a very nice step up; obviously not on all recordings, some just have issues.

    My test problem files are generally now all OK. My worst offender, Phil Collins - Son of Man, is now listenable!

    All for two lengths of wire, four connectors and a bit of wire reorganisation.

    WRT my DAC observations:

    I suspect that any edge/sharpness issues I have noted in my DAC reviews are related to my system earthing; and how well they operated within that environment.

    The BP top end now sounds like that of the Yggdrasil. I would say more recessed than my Bel Canto but far truer & with more detail .....but, I would need to put the BC back in my system to know how it would sound now, and to be honest I am enjoying what I am listening to too much to be bothered.



    M
     
  11. landroni

    landroni Friend

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    @Mods

    I wonder if all the Border Patrol impressions should be moved to a dedicated thread, so as to avoid polluting this one. One or two such posts could probably slide, but random people adding SoC reviews for every other rando DAC would probably make this thread get out of control rather quickly...
     
  12. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    Pollution is maybe too strong, but I'd agree that what amounts to an ownership report of other DACs should be in another/own thread. That just seems better for everyone (everyman and his dac, as the saying goes),

    Even @Torq said that he expected meandering in this thread, but still, it is his reports which should remain its backbone.
     
  13. Thenewerguy009

    Thenewerguy009 Friend

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    Well Torq seems to have taken a sabbatical. Thread is dead without activity!?
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2017
  14. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    Less a sabbatical, and more that I've stopped participating in threads that result in me repeating myself in relation to questions that are already amply addressed, typically multiple times, already. Also, I don't tend to post much anyway unless I have something useful to say, am extremely bored, and/or I've been drinking. Being bored is rare, unless I'm at "work" and I've not been drinking much at all lately - let alone enough to prompt copious shit-posting.

    That's not really a reason to turn it into a bunch of waffle on other DACs without at least having the impressions relate to specific Yggdrasil (etc.) comparisons. Not sure I see a problem with specific threads being cyclic or intermittent with their utilization.

    Besides, there's not been much to post here lately. I haven't gotten around to finishing edits to the Mousai 192 or 4-way Schiit MB comparison. And that latter comparison is, beyond the prose, going to be something of a forgone conclusion anyway**. Otherwise, I'm waiting on Hugo 2*, Ares and Pontus hardware to do the next round of comparisons and, in the mean time, when not traveling (it's that time of year), focusing on just enjoying music, and wrapping up final R&D/qualification ahead of announcing a potentially interesting product here very shortly.

    --

    *Not that I would buy it from them after the Mojo fiasco, but if you see Moon Audio taking pre-orders for Chord products it seems to be a safe bet that you can take whatever their first claim is for availability, add three months, and cross your fingers. Hell, that started as "available in April", currently shows "June" ... even though we're almost a week into July. As it is, they've been delayed all over and while my unit is coming from the UK it isn't here yet.

    **In fact, if you take the number "=" between each DAC in the line below to indicate the degree of difference between DACs in the line-up, a simple summary would be:

    Yggdrasil ==> Gungnir MB =====> Bifrost MB => Modi MB

    The rest of the commentary would be about the details. And while that might be the most interesting part for most people, its also the hardest to express properly.
     
  15. Darren G

    Darren G Friend

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    Interesting @Mr Underhill. Ground loops are essentially simple, but it's easy to create them.

    I think there is a lesson to be learned from TV manufacturers, so many of which set the default colors to be far from natural, but if your goal is to compete on a showroom floor, understandable they want theirs to POP. Likewise if you are buying audio gear based on initial impressions, it's completely understandable why BEATS headphones, and high 'sizzle' gear will get the most initial positive media impressions and in-store WOW impressions, until... you take it home and then your ears start bleeding. Those are extremes those.

    I find it interesting too that some prefer Gungnir Multibit over Yggdrasil because it is a bit less analytical and enjoyable for them, and there is nothing wrong with that.

    Also nothing wrong with you preferring the sound of the Border Patrol DAC. To you and your ears/brain, it is a better match, and that is valid. Also some people prefer their TV's with slightly warmer or cooler colors vs perfect neutral. Nothing wrong with that. The devil is in the details, and finding your last 5%, what leaves you feeling it is enjoyable vs this sucks understandably varies.
     
  16. frenchbat

    frenchbat Almost "Made"

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    Preference is one thing, cookie cutter "A is better than B" sentences are another. Most here will be fine with the first one, but not with the second.
     
  17. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Situation is being monitored. Occasional tangents are permissible although limits are being reached as guidelines stipulate that at least some attempt, even a lame one, be eventually made to point the tangent back into the topic of the thread. I've had my coffee and am happy, so no grumpy Marv, at least not yet.
     
  18. Kattefjaes

    Kattefjaes Mostly Harmless

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    That's just a repeat of the same old mechanism where people notice A Thing, but aren't well enough informed to select sensible hypotheses to explain them. It's like deciding that thunder means the gods are angry, or the old medical theory of humours. The sad bit (for audiophools) is that a lot of the stuff they're building fanciful magical thinking narratives around can reasonably be explained with the current levels of scientific and technological advancement, if they but understood a bit more.

    That sort of thing is how we get religion.

    Thank goodness that Mr. Moffat isn't a smells and spells merchant, and designs good solid kit based on properly-understood engineering principles rather than leaning on snakeoil and endangered woods. Folks who pay for one of his more expensive DACs might be pleasantly surprised just how good they are (even if using those particular Analog Devices converters for audio surprised even their designer).

    (There you go, @Marvey - a hasty post-hoc segue that took the post almost back on topic. )

    What's wrong with that? Add a nice low-pass filter and you've got the ultimate basshead DAC..
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2017
  19. landroni

    landroni Friend

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    The other extreme is scientism, which invariably comes along with the Cult of Science: Armchair theorists playing dress-up scientists with a fetish for speaking authoritatively in the name of science.
    If science was unprepared for the influx of careerists, it was even less prepared for the blossoming of the Cult of Science. The Cult is related to the phenomenon described as “scientism”; both have a tendency to treat the body of scientific knowledge as a holy book or an a-religious revelation that offers simple and decisive resolutions to deep questions. But it adds to this a pinch of glib frivolity and a dash of unembarrassed ignorance. Its rhetorical tics include a forced enthusiasm (a search on Twitter for the hashtag “#sciencedancing” speaks volumes) and a penchant for profanity. Here in Silicon Valley, one can scarcely go a day without seeing a t-shirt reading “Science: It works, b—es!” The hero of the recent popular movie The Martian boasts that he will “science the sh— out of” a situation. One of the largest groups on Facebook is titled “I f—ing love Science!” (a name which, combined with the group’s penchant for posting scarcely any actual scientific material but a lot of pictures of natural phenomena, has prompted more than one actual scientist of my acquaintance to mutter under her breath, “What you truly love is pictures”). Some of the Cult’s leaders like to play dress-up as scientists—Bill Nye and Neil deGrasse Tyson are two particularly prominent examples— but hardly any of them have contributed any research results of note. Rather, Cult leadership trends heavily in the direction of educators, popularizers, and journalists.

    The sad bit (for sciencers) is that a lot of the stuff they're building fanciful magical thinking narratives around are not necessarily in line with the basic precepts of the scientific method, if they but understood it a bit more and how it actually works. Or even simple stuff like what indeed qualifies as Science.

    That sort of thing too is how we get religion.
     
  20. Kattefjaes

    Kattefjaes Mostly Harmless

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    The “I f—ing love Science!” brigade are the same people who buy t-shirts that say "nerd" on them. Generally, they're quite tiring to be around.

    However, it's more a tribal than a religious thing. They tend not to have the attention span for the theology of it all. I'm wary of false equivalence here ;)
     

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