Movie Discussion Thread

Spoiler

Making TLJedi as a musical would have been bold and original. It also would have been asinine as were the implausible plot points within nonsensical story lines of this movie. Aside from some really nice cinematography I don't know how anything in this movie qualifies as 'masterful'. Snoke was made out to be to powerful to not notice a lightsaber being pointed at him from a few inches away by a pupil who's mind he had just bridged across the galaxy to someone else's. You want to ignore the mystery of who is Snoke, you want to kill him unexpectedly? At least do it in a plausible way. Don't tell us 'He's Terrifyingly powerfull, soooo powerfulll... he's amazingly powe... he's dead.' The f**k?

Good comedy may be welcome, but really stupid dialogue is something else. Guardians otG establishes itself as tongue in cheek from the intro credits, the first 'comedy' of TLJedi was more in line with Spaceballs than Starwars. In Rogue One a blind Chirrut Imwe pointed out the dumbness of putting a bag over his head and there was nothing silly about that humour. The guy with the bag Would have put it over Chirrut's head even when the bag served no purpose. A guy in command of a war fleet getting caught up in a 'can you hear me now' bit doesn't make any sense. One example of trying to pass off cheap nonsensical character portrayal as humour.

That same fleet that Can jump in to light speed can't overtake Leia's cruiser? Why not? What an absolutely cheap premise to build a Starwars movie on top of. Even if this were reasonable, (and it isn't) is this the best that they could come up with?

While I'm at it, it is cheap contrivance to tell us that First Order ships won't notice dozens of transports bailing from Leia's cruiser. Hell, Hux's dreadnought was close enough to practically see those transports out the front damn window of the bridge. And why wasn't this supposedly plausible plan shared with Poe? No reason I can see other than to set Poe up to be patronized by Admiral Purple Hair.

I don't have a problem with strong female characters but I do have a problem with implausible plot point after implausible plot point. If the transport escape plan made any sense then there's no reason not to let Poe in on it except for the sake of showing us how wise Laura Dern is as she condescends the hell out of our New Han Solo.

Also, the fate of the Rebellion rests on Finn going and getting Justin Theroux but instead Finn ends up in jail over a parking violation (again, just... f**k) and instead of getting the guy who is supposedly the One guy who can save the day, Finn brings back Benicio Del Toro because Benicio had a scan card on him... What The f**k! The location looked like prequels, the barn kid literally is a youngling, and the CGI horsecat race looked like Harry Potter.

And how it makes ANY sense to spend our last 2 1/2 hours with Luke, a childhood icon, listening to him tell us that the Jedis were fools and hypocrites before milking a space walrus and killing himself (or did he die of exertion? whatever) as opposed to putting a lightsabre in his hand and letting him go kick the the darkside's ass one last time while mentoring the face of the next generation is beyond me. Yes, I did see the showdown with Kylo and it was off, Luke wouldn't have survived all of that blaster fire unless something was going on. Oh, I see, he's a mirage using hard to believe force powers that Rian Johnson just decided Luke has now with absolutely no setup. So the one Jedi looking thing we get to see in over 30 years from Luke Skywalker is actually a mirage. Fantastic.

Leia in space...

The Jedi master mentoring the next generation, Luke Skywalker with sabre and force to the blareing John Williams score. Have we seen it before? Yes... 34 years ago. There was no good reason that I can see to not let us relive a bit of childhood (ala Vader in Rogue One) while treating Luke with some dignity. If you can't figure out how to work that in to a plot that also included original aspects, passed on the baton with dignity and transitioned the franchise to new characters and story lines then handing you a multi billion dollar franchise makes as much sense to me as handing Hux a dreadnought and fleet.

 

Spoiler

Yeah, that pretty much sums up my thoughts on this.

I can appreciate certain elements that were great - light speed suicide, the throne room build up, the Yoda interaction, as well as the bold effort to break new ground. I also felt that Kylo Ren is a rather fascinating character, played relatively well by Adam Driver. Same, but to a slightly lesser degree, with Rey. But the more I think back on the 2.5 hour experience, the more disappointed I get.

It's important to note that GotG is inherently a light-hearted, non-serious, comedic film. Star Wars isn't. There were elements of comedy throughout the main canon and prequels, but at it's core, plenty of deep-ish, dark underlying themes. These two aspects aren't mutually exclusive, but you need to strike a careful balance (smart editing, a strong script are key) -- and this film fell really short at that.

I've been reading critic reviews and audience reviews at work (whoops) today to get a better understanding of why this film was so critically acclaimed. It turns out that general audiences are extremely divided over it.

The main criticism towards people who have panned the film has been - "Just because the film doesn't fit all your endless fan theories doesn't mean it's a bad movie... there isn't any leeway for anything new and bold and brave with that sort of fanboy mindset!".

Well I do understand where they are coming from, but I have always believed in all things that change without direction is meaningless and perhaps even dangerous.

I'm not a Star Wars diehard / fan by any means, and consider myself pretty receptive towards refreshing ideas, but to me The Last Jedi remains a step in the wrong direction. Maybe the crux of the problem is that nobody can tell what direction(s) will/has/have been taken because the film is one of great complexity, aiming to accomplish multiple objectives, but failing to clearly achieve any. Convoluted.

 

@muse I added a bunch to that rant

 

Spoiler

Jeez man, you actually brought up some stuff which I hadn't even remembered. I'm halfway in between laughter and amazement right now.

I may be omitting some plot points here, but why the hell didn't the First Order dreadnoughts (or whatever the large-ass ships were called)... umm... speed up? And get in range of the Rebel ships (I think it was mentioned that their canons could not come within proximity to penetrate the rear shields?) Presumably, they must have had vastly more fuel reserves to burn than the Rebels.

Or, as Kylo Ren had demonstrated to be an immensely successful strategy, why not scramble more Tie-fighters (I think that's what they're called) to attack the main ships? Come to think about it, Hux was an utterly inept commander* whose sole legacy in Episode 8 is the perpetual state of angst.

Also, some dude sitting behind me (who was hyped as hell... the overbearing kind) the moment the lights dimmed gave the most deflating "the f**k was that!?" murmur I have ever heard during the Leia floating scene. LOL.

And yea, I get occasionally pissed off when a remake of a hugely massive franchise is undertaken, and self-righteous fanboys go all up-in-arms because the film has tons of inaccuracies... doesn't portray a certain character right... not faithful to the original... ruined the whole thing etc etc. But in the cast of TLJ, for perhaps the first time ever, I think they have a legitimate right to feel pissed off at how much unwise liberties were taken to stray away from the heart and soul of Star Wars.

* Sidenote: I really dig Domhnall Gleeson's acting chops ever since Ex Machina.

 

Spoiler

Ironic, since I thought the point was blindingly obvious.

In short, it's a story of the Nobody and Nothing rising up to defeat a great power. This movie was a bridge connecting two pieces, and people don't often look at table-setting installments too favorably. The Force Awakens held onto the old Star Wars ideal of proven bloodlines and Jedi royalty rising up to be the hero. Or, at least, it was setting us up for that expectation. Rey's parents must be someone "special". Luke is going to unleash his epic Jedi powers and be the super-wise guide along the way. Etc. Everyone wanted the Kung-Fu Master storyline and were left with their expectations subverted.

Now, almost everything about that world is dead and gone. We're left with Rey, a poor abandoned orphan, who I like infinitely more than I ever liked Luke. We're left with forgotten children around the galaxy. We're left with a tiny spark that will rise into something great.

The Last Jedi was the turning point.

 

I can forgive a misstep here and there but most of the premises in this movie are implausible and filled with plot points that don't make sense acted out by characters often acting in ways or with dialogue that don't at all work in context.

Characters and plot lines that had been given weight were simply dismissed without explanation or ceremony. Opportunities with our childhood icons were missed.

Inevitably, if this this franchise was going to live on it was going to evolve. That was unavoidable. What I'm saying is that it's a shame to praise this movie for giving us evolution that was always going to happen while not holding the movie to a standard of believable premises with plausible plot points and sensible dialogue.

Yes, there are deeper themes in play now, sure. But those deeper themes, assuming that that Is even a good thing*, were draped over a very shittily written movie that as such, and as far as I'm concerned, not only doesn't deserve to be congratulated but sends a signal that not only will we not not hold Disney accountable for poorly written movies but that we will cheer them.

*Did the prequels not also try to raise some of these themes and end up with shitty movies?

 

Were there not some 'blindingly obvious' elements carried in to this film that were deliberately turned in to nothing? I realize I'm talking plot lines and characters as opposed to themes, but still.

 

Subverted expectations. At every turn.

I think your comment that "opportunities with our childhood icons were missed" is telling, and also the heart of why many people left disappointed.

Opportunities weren't missed. They were intentionally left behind.

The Force Awakens pandered to sentimentality, and I was fine with it. But, the break-up has to happen for this franchise to move forward. Breakups are hard.

 

I understand what you mean. I think it's a good idea, but that the execution left much to be desired.

To be honest for most neutral viewers, I think few were expecting Rey's origins to be amazing, or for Luke to go full Jedi Master on the First Order. If anything, I felt The Force Awakens was setting it up to be anything but.

I really liked that Rey emerged from absolute nothing, and I would have been pissed if Luke just turned the tide of the war as an OP killing machine. As mentioned, I liked the overall story arc a fair bit.

But I think the main gripes that @BillOhio and I are bringing up aren't so much about this general storyline, but about the gaping plotholes in order to reach that end.

It's like LoTR but with Frodo's final path being blocked by 10 Sauron clones... then finding a ubersecret path up Mount Doom. You could keep the rest of the literature exactly the same and it'd still remain a masterful piece of work. But that headscratching twist at the end always leaves a sour taste in your mouth.

TLJ is obviously not to that extent, but 4-5 of these plot holes appear, which when accumulated really just drags the film down.

 

They are planning to make a Starwars movie every year for the rest of our lives. Can you explain to me why the 'breakup' needed to happen in the last movie where you'll ever have access to giving us one last hurrah with Luke? Or why it needed to be a breakup at all as opposed to a transition?

You were always going to get a reset of the franchise, new stories and characters and themes. This movie is garbage to me because it wasted the only shot at seeing Luke again and because it opens the door for every Starwars going forward to be terribly written.

 

This makes it difficult to feel like anything is blindingly obvious then, no? Even worse, it makes it hard to be confident these films will maintain themes from one film to the next. At that point, why invest myself in a story that for all I know is only going to be 'subverted' in the next installment.

 

Spoiler

The astral projection WAS a last hurrah with Luke, and it was pretty badass. It's quite possibly the most powerful Jedi trick we've ever seen. What else do you want? Brushing the dust off his shoulder was awesome. His dialogue with Kylo at the end was great. And, don't you think he'll be back in the next movie? He'll finally be the wise sage, everyone was hoping he'd be, but it'll be in spirit form rather than the physical.

Nobody complains in the original trilogy that Yoda died. That's because Luke was the new hero and it was time for him to take over.

This is the parallel for the new generation.

 

I used the phrase turning point. That's what this movie is. A point of inflection for us math nerds.

The theme going forward is what I was referring to as blindingly obvious.

 

Spoiler

One Jedi act in two movies that turned out to be a mirage using a force power that was, to many of us, as not believable as Leia's Space Flying Powers and given No setup ... about 3 minutes out of two movies was not satisfying. Be Rey's Obi Wan, take on Snoke and Kylo, Lightsabres Force Lightning Epic aerial dogfights in the background, narrow escapes and insurmountable odds, Kylo and Rey both torn between the dark and the light, between their mistrust of each other versus their bond with each other, one a Skywalke versus the other, an outcast, John Williams blaring the whole time... instead you've got Luke on an island disollusioned and delivering soliloquies about Jedi's being hypocrites and chumps for most of the movie? f**k that... You could have given Luke and his fans their due, a 'real' Starwars movie and still advanced the plot to where it is now and done so much more convincingly and satisfyingly than what actually made it on screen. Would it have been something we'd seen before? Yes, so? That obviously doesn't mean that's all we were ever going to see. Reinvent the franchise when you Don't have access to Luke for the last time, or let Luke be Luke within that reinvention. If practically all you're going to do with him is stick him on an island for 2 movies then why was he even in these movies other than to show up in the trailers as bait to those of us for whom he was a childhood icon?

 

I understood that and stand by the question that in the middle of all this subversion of expectation how can anything be taken as blindingly obvious whether it's characters, story lines, cohesion between films... or themes. Why are you so sure that it won't be your expectations that are subverted next?

 

I could be wrong. Certainly.

But, I doubt it. This is still Star Wars, after all, and the path forward has been clearly (and consistently) laid out. The subversion all involved the who and the how, but that what remains unchanged.

We clearly disagree and that's fine. I'm sorry this film didn't give you the same child-like joy that the originals did. Truly.

But, on one thing, we can agree. Space Leia was totally lame. I'm completely baffled by that one and offer no defense.

 

I think the main issue here is the limits to the subversion of expectations.

@Skyline I think is more in-tuned to the overarching storyline as compared to the nitty gritty details, and finds the subversion of expectations to be not only permissible, but refreshing. The OT and prequels aren't exactly rock solid in terms of logical flow in the first place, and hence the whole Star Wars literature shouldn't be unfairly scrutinized in that sense.

On the other hand, @BillOhio and I I believe are okay with subversion, so as long as it doesn't detract too far away from certain themes in the Star Wars universe that have been established throughout Ep 1-6. We are also more concerned with the soundness of logic, which simply isn't a strong suit in this film.

 

Spoiler: SPOILER

Yep, more midi-chlorians would have totally made this movie.

I jest of course. I think it was an imperfect movie. I've got problems with pacing and character development and plot lines and stupid humor/script and all kind of stuff. I like though that the force is bigger than the Jedi and they have no idea what is going on with the force awakening. I'm not sure we'll have Star Wars anymore, but I'm kind of excited about what will happen with the Star Wars universe. I can't wait to see it again.

It would have been fascinating to know what they were hoping to do with Leia. I always was intrigued with Yoda's promise of another.

 

Anyone who thought stars the last jedi was a good movie is probably brainless....It doesn't come from a star wars perspective, but just from a movie perspective.

Ok dude the first order just lost their huge ass planet sunkiller....and they are pissed. They are coming with a vengence...with some speech about giving no quarters and shit. You feel the desperation of the resistance trying to flee as fast as possible.....to hype it up the resistance gets caught off guard in the middle of their evac. Shit is gonna go down....there are gonna be some sacrifices......so far so good.

Then the whole Poe/Hux telephone charade thing...LIke wtf? Not only is the humor terrible, but why is this even needed? No quarter will be given my ass...This is already when the movie starts to fall apart. Then one X-wing vs a fleet of star destroyers, a dreadnought, and multiple aircrafts...as if its plausible....don't give a shit if he's the best pilot in the whole galaxy...its just stupid. Compared to the old series, when a heavier ship like the millenium falcon had to run away from a normal star destroyer the whole time...its a tough sell. As if that wasn't bad enough, then in the middle of their evacuation, they want to take down a dreadnought by sacrificing all their forces, "because a chance like this doesn't come everyday"....I'm like rolling my eyes...being like this is idiotic and totally stupid. Yeah....they have like 5 star destroyers which probably have like 100-200 tiefighters vs a handful of xwings and 3 slow ass bombing vessels. And one bombing vessel manages to take out a whole dreadnought....with all the hyped up melodramatic drop the bomb with the switch sequence........Can you see why I can't be engaged in this movie?

The dialogue is poor, the premise is f'ing poor, nothing is believeable and nothing really leads to any tension or anticipation or consequences.

After the dreadnought dies, Hux is not even angry...he's a child being like I made a mistake. Like in the old star wars days...the tone was serious when you got a call from the emperor, and failure would not be tolerated. He gets a free pass....its just unrealistic.

Ok Then the rebels get jumped on with the hyperspace tracker.....OH ok...shit...Poe....permission to blow shit up? permission granted....in a not believable corny way. Last I remember....the first order got the jump and they destroyed all the resistance fighters due to kylo ren's amazing attacking move. The resistance is now vunerable and the headbridge is taken out....with all our favorites including admiral ackbar...You begin to feel the desperation now...then all that shit amounts to nothing....because all the fighters have to return because they can't be covered by the star destroyers............i remember an xwing just owning a dreadnought by itself....you are telling me that a whole fleet of ships with all their fighters, can't take out 3 resistance ships that have no support? Then it becomes a fuel game? Facepalm. If the resistance ships are indeed faster....wtf don't they disappear after like 15 hours. I don't get it...they are outrunning the destroyers...In any case, the first order ships would have to do a light speed jump periodically to stay at their range.

On a side note....f**k Rose. I'm a asian person and I'm like...this girl is useless and annoying as shit. If the fate of my survival is in the threads.....I'm not going to put my chips on some disney channel girl to do the heavy lifting. Facepalm.

You see the pattern I'm getting at? Its terrible film making......Nothing is plausible, nothing makes sense, Any hyped moment or any tension amount to nothing and leads to a really non cohesive choppy ride. I can talk about every scene and everything thats wrong with it from poor dialogue to poor acting and poor setup....but I hope you get my point. I found it hard to care about anything and anyone because nothing really mattered.

It really can't hold a candle up to a past disney movie like Pocahontas. Rant over and this really was a shitty movie....star wars or not.

 

Episodes 1-6? 1-3 do not exist. You are surely mistaken.

If you want to see me go into angry/rant mode, just start a discussion on the prequels.

Oh, MAN. Bring out the torches, pitchforks, and...screw it. Who am I kidding? Only a nuke will do for those abominations.

*grumble grumble*