Mshenay expresses his deep love for garage 1217 amps and related miscellania

Discussion in 'How to Win Friends and Influence People' started by Mshenay, Jul 17, 2017.

  1. Mshenay

    Mshenay Barred from loaner program. DON'T SEND ME GEAR.

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    only 1 like is not sufficient, I'd imagine others have echo'd your sentiments but I love being able to make small changes to my amp depending on what I'm listening with/to. Sadly I haven't dipped my toes into any of the bigger more robust tube amps/designs but from the time I've spent in the sub $500 range I've found my self impressed with how much clarity and detail you can get out of a well designed tube amp! My modest little Ember II is quieter and provides better imaging/detail than the balanced output of my NFB 10ES2... my hybrid tube is just hands down better than the balanced solid-state amp I have.

    An much like the balanced vs single end discussion that pop up, I don't feel one is superior to the other. The pro's and con's of each are worth while and as such I keep one of each in my existing build. I'd really like to at some point add a tube preamp in between my next dac -> balanced Solid State chain.
     
  2. Mshenay

    Mshenay Barred from loaner program. DON'T SEND ME GEAR.

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    I do agree to some extent. My own Ember II does an amazing job with transients, an improvement compared to my solid state that's audible with all of my dynamics! , still though while my Hybrid tube does a great job with transients focused within the lower mid range and upwards, my solid state still does a better job with transient information in the low end, maybe it's a fault of the amp I own

    the other factor here is what your listening with, as synergy plays into whether tube or solid state is better, epically in the lower price brackets where comprises are made

    weird stuff like foot steps, or a mic cable brushing again'st the floor, or the sound of paper turning, these un-related or non musical details do shine through more apparently with my solid state/he 4 combo

    So to that end, because my Eikon resolve more information related to the music, the instruments and the people playing them. I find I REALLY enjoy it with my Hybrid Tube! It sounds very real to life, very natural, part of that is also the impedance matching between the two as well,

    on the other hand my HE 4 has... as Marvey calls it, "Super Definition" it over defines weird ambient especially up top, so that said I still prefer it through my Solid State, as the super definition is better maintained with a Solid State, from time to time I like that super definition, I want to hear weird ambient noise, information still hangs nicely and is felt as it decays, going to my tube softens that tactility,
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2017
  3. Darren G

    Darren G Friend

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    Don't know, but after spending a couple of decades switching out pure SS gear, with the same result, it sounds dry, repetitive, harsh, annoying, I am enjoying me some tubes. Who cares if it's technically accurate? I can spend hours now listening to music where before I could barely handle 30 minutes. Oh and thankfully today's tubes sound nothing like the mushy noisy Dynaco tube gear I grew up with. There is still a ton of razor sharp attack, no hum, no noise, but also it doesn't sound like utter crap :p
     
  4. Mshenay

    Mshenay Barred from loaner program. DON'T SEND ME GEAR.

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    The Ember is not "hazy" it's very tube dependent, and different tubes do change the tonality and total resolution of the amp, a large part of the "haze" that I got with the Ember was a result of me passively reducing the higher gain input from my Dac, removing the passive resitance and running the lower gain setting on my dac allowed me to have some clarity. My Audio GD has always had extra noise and haze when it's driving with the High Gain on the Line out , an I understand that Marvey's initial impression was poor, that falls on him for not wanting to "tube roll" I appreciate both Schiit for designing an amp that is less affected by the tube you drop into it, but also enjoy the approach of building an amazing base upon which to roll the right tube for you into, Ember being the latter, if you only run stock settings you'll have the haze

    Decay is more specifically how quickly you drop from the initial attack to either a point of sustain or the point at which there is a release, the release is what hangs, with more resolving gear you can distinguish the decay from the release, though they often overlap, as the decay will fall into a point of sustain or into the release point


    An using the word homogenization in reference to sound is interesting as well, An given the context I agree, I prefer coherence as your correct, a homogeneous mix sounds very boring

    An an abundance in quantity of power doesn't ever translate to quality, and as far as the indistinguishable and un measured magic of tubes is appealing, and I again like how you describe a solid state, being able to pick apart a piece of musical mechanically, the HE 4 fits that bill very much, it's a tool I use to dissect something. I prefer the Eikon pair'd with my Ember II to experience music as "unique" human event.

    Finally, maybe I understand it incorrectly, but seeing as Macro referrs to large scale, I've always associated transients with macro detail, the large scale being the number of instruments, there's far more macro detail or detail in the large collection of instruments were choosing to listen to, than their is micro [or small scale] detail imo

    the small scale of things we hear are those little or non important, minor details, a chair moving around in a mix is by no means a large part of the "big picture" but rather it's a small detail or small part of a larger image,
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2017
  5. HitmanFluffy

    HitmanFluffy Hoping to see real genitals someday!

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    To be frank, opinions gleaned from mid-fi closed backs and playnars, not to mention the amps, aren't going to be very useful at all. I just glossed over the rest of the audiophool terms you vomited all over like "plankton" and what not when you've clearly not actually heard it.
     
  6. Mshenay

    Mshenay Barred from loaner program. DON'T SEND ME GEAR.

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    Thankfully your not the only audience here, and what ever price range your find your self in isn't all that exists. I'd like to find the super best in Mid-Fi purgatory while I'm there. An while I'm listening I figure why not share what I'm hearing with others. You never know who's lurking, even though I imagine you see your self above us Mid-Fi neanderthals, an may want us gone, there's still plenty of us reading and looking for information, the Tube vs Solid State discussion always enjoyable, and different perspectives don't bring down the whole

    as for the audiophool terms, their really a specialized language, HF has it's vernacular and I'm still learning the vernacular here

    mid-fi such a vague term. Epically given the mods my He 4s gone through, but yes I suppose its no Utopia, still to modded mid fi purgatory I'll return,

    Getting back to tube vs solidstate has any one heard anything regarding the next Torpedo amp?
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2017
  7. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

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    I think the mid-fi evaluations are useful because for the majority of users, true high end audio is a pipe dream short of digging a hole of debt. It's the exact reason Schiit is doing so well. Regardless, it's nice to know what to expect even if it's "only" mid-fi.

    Is someone sharing their love of their Toyota Camry irrelevant because I own a Mercedes SLS?
     
  8. brencho

    brencho Friend

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    I definitely agree with you, impressions and discussions of non-TOTL stuff are super useful and they happen all the time on the site. However, i do think it's important to try to maintain the SNR of this site. So I'd like to urge @Mshenay to think before writing. Writing is not for thinking. Thinking is for thinking. Long posts in structureless English and idiosyncratic spelling and inane repetition and throwing terms around really dont help anybody, and invite criticism, or worse. Thinking is free and we hopefully all do it but that doesn't mean that every thing we think must be communicated via public posts. Oh the thinks we can think...
     
  9. bazelio

    bazelio Friend

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    Did someone say DENAFRIPS?
     
  10. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    TBH, I'm not a big fan of the Ember, even comparing against other mid-fi. There is a reason why it isn't listed in the recommended amps for HD800 or affordable recommended tube amp threads.
     
  11. Luckbad

    Luckbad Traded in a unicorn for a Corolla

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    We need to get you a Sunrise III or Horizon III at some point. There's a reason people like @atomicbob still own one of those and not the Ember.

    Where I was in my headphone journey when I first had the Ember, I thought it was pretty amazing. Later on, I got a Sunrise or Horizon, then got another Ember to compare. The Sunrise/Horizon are considerably better than the Ember.

    The Ember is really only the flagship because it can roll infinity tubes, works with an insane range of headphones, and has auto-bias.
     
  12. frenchbat

    frenchbat Almost "Made"

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    @Mshenay

    While mid-fi gear impressions can be useful to part of the population here, what I think @HitmanFluffy was meaning (and @brencho ofc), is that keeping impressions consolidated in one place would be appreciated. No need to repeat the (essentially) same thing in different places of the forum.
     
  13. Deep Funk

    Deep Funk Deep thoughts - Friend

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    Recent tube convert here. Tubes can transform your audio system from "sounds good" to "play that again, this sounds better."

    Back to power amplifiers and/or pre-amplifiers and/or integrated amplifiers. If there is one amp I enjoyed way too much it was my old Sansui with turntable and AKG K240 DF. I had an old AU217 I and it was good. If ever I can afford a decent audio system with speakers and turntable, I want that Sansui sound.

    With some DIY skills and basic knowledge you can keep those old Sansuis running for a long time.
     
  14. Ray

    Ray Friend

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    in my experience good tube amps offer a level of transparency I've just not heard in ss amps. My experience is only limited to headphones. I find it hard to listen to ss now as I feel I missing something
     
  15. TheIceman93

    TheIceman93 El pato-zorro

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    I'm curious to hear what gear someone needs to own in order to be able to comment accurately on the differences between tubes and SS ... not trying to pour fuel on the fire, I'm genuinely curious. What is the baseline?
     
  16. Mshenay

    Mshenay Barred from loaner program. DON'T SEND ME GEAR.

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    The Ember is 100% This amp, @Marvey you openly admitted you didn't take the time to roll tubes into, which is a shame as the stock tube is gawd awful

    To that end I also need to hear the Sunrise/Horizon III as well, the HF thread that handles all the tube rolling madness for the Ember did a comparison of the two and the Ember was "cold and hard" in comparison to the Sunrise which was considerably warmer,
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2017
  17. JoshMorr

    JoshMorr Friend

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    No need to try and convince us here that your ember is the best. Even if we havnt heard your amp under your conditions, many have heard hybrid tube amps similar in topology, and while it might not be exactly the same, can get a general idea of how this sounds and its limitations. Same for tube rolling, swapping in tubes of the same family help, but doesn't turn a turd into a diamond.

    Hazy to some of us is different that your hazy as we've heard real tube amps and what they are capable of. You've gotten a small taste of tube amps in this hobby, sit back, listen, experience, learn.
     
  18. Stapsy

    Stapsy Friend

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    I think part of your issues here are the general statements you are making. Saying things like "the ember is not hazy with the right tubes" opens you up to skepticism. Absolute statements can be very misleading when it comes to audio, especially in mid-fi. I doubt that any members who have experiences with high end tube amps would feel that rolling tubes removes the haze completely. A comparison to stock would have been more valid and useful for people who are interested.
     
  19. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    The car analogy is weak as outside of auto fetishism cars are a tool to get you from point A to point B and regardless of their speed or the experience of driving them they both get you "there". Audio playback is a scientific attempt at recreating a previous musical event (the recording) but we know that perfect reproduction is impossible with the technology of today. It is more akin to a TV or other display reproducing an image with accurate colors. Human beings are flawed creatures and are incapable of making a single perfect component, multiple of which are required to reproduce audio. Even if we could somehow make one single perfect component, how could we deem it as such by evaluating it in a chain of other imperfect components?

    So "perfect" playback is a pipe dream, but this does not mean we should settle for mediocrity. You should know by now that mid-fi is a nomination dissociated with price and wholly concerned with performance. Do not read too much into or be insulted HMFs caution as he is an elitist simply flexing on you after a workout. The point is he could take what you have spent on your entire system as it exists today and build one that is better (not just to his taste), with fewer overall compromises and shortcomings because he is more knowledgeable. The Ember as an amp is mid-fi, regardless of what tube you put in it. I don't want to bash on it too hard as I like G1217 and its proprietor Jeremy in general, and I'm sure the Sunrise/Horizon which I have not heard are better.

    Of course as a community we should be concerned with finding and discussing gear that provides the best performance for the smallest cost outlay. This is not WhatsBestForum or Audiogon or AudioKarma and we are primarily still discussing headphone gear which is ultimately a compromise for living situations in which speakers are not viable and thus spending large sums of cash on headphones and headamps exclusively is a frivolous pursuit. Options are much more limited and most people seem to pidgeon-hole themselves into making poor value purchases as a result. I imagine you would be surprised at what is possible in the two channel world without digging yourself into a "hole of debt".

    Yep, the "feeling of something missing" is exactly that, a lack of low-level information retrieval and a lack of immediacy which are inter-related to a degree. The minds attempt to use tubes or analog as a reference and "fill in the blanks" are what causes strain and fatigue which lead to dissatisfaction. Ironically the only long-term solution to this may be to inoculate yourself by listening to solid-state exclusively. This is why I chuckle when I see some describe themselves as "solid-state guys". Sure at the low-end the compromises of solid-state may be preferable to some but with the net goal of fidelity the tables flip as you move up.

    Jeremy ships the amp with different tubes sometimes, but it really doesn't matter. Yeah one tube or another may help some traits but will likely hurt others. Tube rolling is a game of trade-offs and you should be skeptical of any amp advertised or advocated towards tube rollers. I made much of the same mistake with the Valhalla 2 and quickly learned the stock tubes are your best bet and were chosen for a reason, not just because they were cheap.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2017
  20. Mshenay

    Mshenay Barred from loaner program. DON'T SEND ME GEAR.

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    Not at all, I've been through a dozen mid-low fi Hybrids, all of them benefit from rolling, and the Stock tube has never the best option. For what ever review or comparison I've done, I always find the best sounding tube for my system, and compare the amps with the same tube. Mid Fi is a land of compromise, so when your looking at an amp how it sounds with the Stock tube is moot as you'll disservice yourself only using it. But no tube will ever transform a Hybrid like the Ember into something as beautiful as A Zana Duex, Maybe the Valhalla 2 is the one Mid-Fi tube that breaks away from the rolling tradition, but everything else I've heard sounds terrible with the stock tubes minus the Vali 1, rolling a $60 tube into a $300 amp in my eye's is worthwhile. The improvements are quite tangible, though never game changing,

    @k4rstar you make a good point in terms of cost to performance, the Ember's ability to power my sensitive dynamics and Planars is why I purchased it, the Horozion/Sunrise are built for different headphone Ranges, 32-300 and 120-600 for that reason I to feel they may do an overall better job within their intended range, than the Ember which was designed to do it all,
     

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