New LCD-4 vs Utopia shootout from Innerfidelity.

Discussion in 'Headphones' started by Thenewerguy009, Mar 18, 2017.

  1. Muse Wanderer

    Muse Wanderer Friend

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    This unplanned comparison was very surprising indeed. A bit of background to this...

    So here I was at Munich High End speaker hunting with Utopia in my bag all weekend. I got to know @Serious, who has the ears of a bat, the talent of a top engineer and loves music as much as I do. Perfect! We incidentally arrived at HeadAmp's table and the person in charge had borrowed a new Utopia from Focal to show off the GSX mark II sourced from a Holo Spring DAC NOS mode. I got mine out just for fun and we changed the HeadAmp's Utopia cable to stock to allow direct comparison. Both were driven single ended through same amp and DAC. Mine needed a balanced to single end adapter made from the stock cable.

    Being me I started to listen to a Schubert string quartet and @Serious listened along with me to the same piece on the other headphone out. We then exchanged Utopias, and here I was shaking my head in disbelief as I felt this new one was a little bassier than mine, with lowered mids and a bit of sharp treble. My first thought was, "Oh my, my Utopia is lean!!". We exchanged Utopias several times and started to listen repeatedly to the same 30 seconds piece with cello, violins and viola. Having three string instruments with different frequency ranges, helps delineate different spectrums of the bass, mids and treble. Serious turned to me, and told me that mine was definitely better. I was incredulous and relieved. He was right as the mids were more present, with a bit less treble sharpness and a bit less pronounced bass. Everything sounded smoother and non-fatiguing. Dynamics were still strong as ever, music was still upfront with no hollowness in the presentation of the fully modded HD800s.

    Finally we got to listen to the new Utopia with a Kimber Axios AG pure silver cable and the sound was more neutral. My Utopia fitted with this cable sounded even better. Here I was thinking that it couldn't get any better and a silver cable that costs lots of $$$ makes it happen! Now I need 4 metres at least in my setup as the Rag is used as speaker amp. That would cost me $4800... no way!

    My Utopia has a serial no 118x and the new Utopia at the Headamp booth had a SN 202x. I regret not swapping pads at the time to check whether pad wear was a factor in this. That said, I really don't know for certain whether five months ago it sounded any different. I remember at the time thinking that it was less bassy and more neutral than the Utopia I heard at London Indugence show and the two at Canjam London last summer. The slight sibilance I heard at the shows with music featuring celesta or glockenspiel was gone. My impression was that the Yggdrasil's outstanding qualities and the Rag's smoothness and power brought out the best of the cans. However over these few months the headphone did become somewhat less fatiguing. Mind you, I listen possibly to <5 hours a week nowadays. I did burn in the cans for around 100 hours after getting them FWIW.

    On Sunday, after a few hours of listening to speakers, we entered Focal's room and got to listen to all their headphones whose SN was 319x, 322x, 323x and compare these to mine. These were driven by a Woo, Auralic and Questyle amps. The impression we got was similar to the one we had earlier on Headamp's Utopia, that was borrowed from Focal anyway. I have to point out that the differences are subtle and all headphones were very similarly voiced. All new headphones were similar sounding. Only repeated sampling of the same music brought out perceived differences.

    I am of course biased, but I would rather prefer that mine sounds this way because of burn in and pad wear rather than as a result of variable production. Since the topology of the driver is similar to speaker ones, burn in might indeed work with this headphone. I hope this experience will encourage others to compare their used Utopias with newer ones and check whether changing pads makes a noticeable difference.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2017
  2. murphythecat

    murphythecat GRU-powered uniformed trumpkin

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    sometime I think so too, but then I put on my Utopia and feel the Utopia are def better then my modified hd800

    if I compare a hd800 stock with modified hd800, I couldnt have ever believed that a hd800 after modification could be so unbright.

    I feel that the utopia drivers have more potential then the hd800 drivers, just need someone to try modding those Utopia...
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
  3. pippenainteasy

    pippenainteasy Acquaintance

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    Bigger earpads :)
     
  4. wormcycle

    wormcycle Friend

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    Modding Utopia may be a challenge. It looks like many people applied the same mod to hd800 getting the same improvement in SQ. that because those hd800s sounded the same in the first place.
     
  5. Mshenay

    Mshenay Barred from loaner program. DON'T SEND ME GEAR.

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    Sadly I didn't have a chance to listen to the Utopia with music I was familiar with, but having heard both the Utopia and @TomNC's Modded HD800, I can say I appreciate and remember the HD 800 more than I did the Utopia. The Utopia didn't compare with my HE 4 at all in terms of bass clarity, I was impressed though that it had a punchier more tactile sound in the mids than my HE 4, in addition to better overall detail and definition. I listened with a Zana Duex, I can't see my self ever getting a Utopia, though I do appreciate the "forwardness of the individual instrument sounds" I've never attend a live Orchestral performance outside of my high School, so I can't relate to how @TomNC felt about the sound stage, how ever with Jazz something I've had the pleasure of enjoying live, It didn't feel unnatural to me. My He 4 and the Utopia give me the sense that I'm sitting rather close to the stage, in a track I hadn't heard there was a greater sense of Intimacy with the Utopia that I didn't mind, though the HE 4 is a bit thin all things relative

    But comparing the modded HD 800 to my HE 4 out of my Project Ember II with music I know, I again have that wanting for a Modded HD 800! More so than a Utopia, which had it's obvious advantages over my modest mid fi planar. Still, that HD800 was impressive, the sound stage was more defined and very natural. It had a touch more body/sweetness in the mids without losing any of it's presence! But neither the Elear or Utopia strike me as a be all end all open back at home in my system, where as with the modded HD 800 I could certainly see it replacing my HE 4, as something that I use and enjoy with all kinds of music...

    Also, not having heard the LCD 4, and only experiencing the LCD 2 it's disappointing to hear there's still a real lack of lower treble... I guess that's the Audeze "house flaw" still I've yet to hear it for my self
     
  6. TomNC

    TomNC Friend

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    Hi, Mshenay,

    Thanks for the feedback on my HD800. I am grateful to Bill-P for working on my 800 twice to make it as good as it is now. I could not help smile when reading your words "more body and sweetness in the mids". That is the very essence of Bill-P's mod, besides sorrodje's resonators. The Norne Draug 2 cable might help a little too.

    Now that I have Stax 009 driven by T1, I still keep coming back to the 800 for better mids and lows, despite the non-fatiguing smoothe trebles and greater speed/resolution of the 009.
     
  7. TravelingMan

    TravelingMan New

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    My experience is subjective...bear with me.

    I like to sit on the porch with my cans, or listen while i cook, so my rig presently is my Note 5/Tidal HiFi with Mojo and HD800 with Black Dragon.

    I went to my local shop recently to check out an LCD 2. Took my Mojo and phone. Ended up listening to the nice looking cans on the end table beside the couch, instead.

    They were Utopias with the stock cable...with Tidal...with Mojo...

    Before this i had had only ONE you-are-there (subjective! YMMV) experience with headphones (Macintosh headamp and HD800).

    Utopia and Mojo were Number 2. I was in Heaven.

    #1) I DO NOT have the range of experience of others here, re: multiple uber $ amps and cans.

    #2) I am comfortable with my impression of the Utopias. I am almost ready to buy them. So, question:

    Is it really laughable that these cans cost $4K? If so, what better options do I have given my expectations (a you-are-there experience and portability).

    I want to stress that I am ready to hear that, yes, these headphones are way overpriced. But I also would like to hear of some other possibiities based on my peers greater experience. Thanks!!
     
  8. wormcycle

    wormcycle Friend

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    From what we read in this thread, it would not be enough to pay 4k fro Utopias to buy the great experience you are describing. For that, you would have to buy the same pair that you enjoyed so much. And that, taking into account the 4K price, is actually laughable.
     
  9. Galm

    Galm Still looking for Little Red Riding Hood

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    Lot of interesting stuff here!

    My experience was the exact opposite. I borrowed a Utopia from TheCableCompany (and now have one coming for keeps next week from another company) and had a week to compare directly with my modded HD800SDRs... I thought they thrashed the HD800s. They had a smaller soundstage and bass definition was probably edged out by HD800 (its crazy tight but thin) but the bass level was more satisfying and Utopia ran away with the other categories. The HD800s sound artificial to my ears now in comparison between using my studio monitors, Utopias, and HD800s. So... Lol if you want an SDR modded HD800 hit me up, it's for sale elsewhere already.

    I also own a Mojo with my ie800s. I only briefly tried them with Utopia for shits and gigs and boy, if you were impressed then, get a dedicated amp and dac, you'll be blown away. Mojo is good at certain things, but not at driving flagships... Both HD800 and Utopia were not reaching their potential out of it. Mojo sounds bright to my ears out of them, and like... truncated? Or something on ultra resolving headphones. Less smooth, which is weird when I think it sounds like butter smooth on my ie800s but I digress. Pick up a Jotunheim or something, preferably a nicer tube amp imho. (Also if you're going to spend so much on headphones get a real amp...)

    Same, Utopia sound more engaging and alive to me. Closer to what was intended to my ears.
     
  10. Mshenay

    Mshenay Barred from loaner program. DON'T SEND ME GEAR.

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    Your not the only one selling one! I really need to spend a good week with the Utopia, but I'll have to wait to see if any one starts another tour with it. But @Bill-P how do the SDR Mods differ from the mods you did on the HD 800 that @TomNC has [sorry for the derail]

    An @Galm what other categories did you feel the Utopia thrashed the HD 800 in, I recall you and other mentioning how the HD 800 sounds kinda fake after hearing the Utopia, but some people here felt the Utopia's sound stage was also... odd or had to much presence
     
  11. Galm

    Galm Still looking for Little Red Riding Hood

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    Highs and mid resolution definitely... I remember I think technically the HD800s have better transient attack or something? But I didn't really notice.

    Anyway they sounded much more just realistic to my ears. I listened to some oldies like So What by Miles Davis and the Utopias sounded narrower than HD800 but at the same time more believable. I'm not I'm part of the camp who says HD800 is too wide, but Utopia's actual like... Location? Of the instruments was much more precise. It made the HD800s sound like the placement of the instruements while wider was a little less precise, almost fuzzier somehow...

    If I could get like insurance on it I'd ship my SDR's around... Probably want like 100-200 bucks for the potential wear I guess but I'd do it.

    Anyway for certain genres Utopia just runs away. Classical has always been what HD800 was famous for, but Utopia held up well I thought. More different than like straight up worse, but if that's your thing I can see how HD800 could be better as that soundstage is sweet.

    However for like rock, hip hop, and edm I thought Utopia was way more engaging. I listen to most genres but Green Day is my child hood favorite that has to sound good for me to want a pair of headphones, and Utopia was so much better it convinced me I wanted some in like the first 8 bars. It's just so much less thin than HD800 sounds (which could be a mix of bad mastering and the wider soundstage on HD800). Hip Hop the bass definitely hits harder, and I also didn't feel any fatigue like the treble would give me on stock HD800s (and SDR to a lesser degree).
     
  12. Mshenay

    Mshenay Barred from loaner program. DON'T SEND ME GEAR.

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    Us Postal Service is pretty generous with it's insurance policy. The like before and after pictures, and if there's any physical damage they aren't stingy with payout.

    Non the less, I didn't get enough time with the HD 800 but for the Live Reggae track I listened to, it was impressive. Sound stage wasn't too fuzzy, and the transients were amazing! My HE 4 has a lot of attack, it's very aggressive which I love. Transients and micro detail really pop but it can be kinda strident, the modded HD 800 I had, had the same transients, but with a more natural touch of warmth! Still, It was obvious to my ears that the Utopia was just better... than my HE 4. Though the price tag is what drives me away. $800 An I can grab a good modded HD 800, vs what... maybe $2000 for a used Utopia?! Still, I did LOVE the ENERGY the Utopia had! Really reminded me of my HE 4, the only issue I had with the Utopia though was the bass... wasn't as tactile nor controlled as my He 4 was... still that's just nitpicking. I was also impressed by how amazing the Utopia sounded with a CELL phone... LIKE WOW. Talk about a complete package
     
  13. Galm

    Galm Still looking for Little Red Riding Hood

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    I'll compare the bass more closely again as I'll probably still have the 800s when the Utopias arrive for real next week. I didn't find it like out of control it still seems to get the texture out of bass instruments that not many headphones can do. But yeah bass was a category that had me scratching my head and kinda concluding that the HD800 probably sounded technically better, but Utopia sounded more natural and enjoyable. Also holy crap if HD800 sounded warmer than anything I don't wanna try whatever was brighter lol.
     
  14. Bill-P

    Bill-P Level 42 Mad Wizard

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    I'm just awesome like that! :p

    Haha. It's just SDR + SBAF mod with laser-cut shelf-liner. So SDR mod + some small extra reflection damping.

    I would probably do it differently now that I have a much better understanding of how to tune specific regions of the FR, and I think I can most likely make an HD800 sound and measure quite well, but again, too hooked on Andromeda now to really care enough to give that theory a go. :)
     
  15. Mshenay

    Mshenay Barred from loaner program. DON'T SEND ME GEAR.

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    Well the avoid the HE 4, @Marvey posted frq response for the HE 4 HE 560 an Susvara, the HE 4 is the brightest and most distorted, the distortion manifests it self as "energy" in the treble or so I've been told, but yea it's pretty cold... I run it with OFC Cables and Beyer DT 880 pads and wood cups, to try and tame those highs [not that the cups really make a difference] But I enjoy it, compete's well for a $350 headphone... although it is really cold and a little unrealistic sounding at times
     
  16. murphythecat

    murphythecat GRU-powered uniformed trumpkin

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    so you prefer andromeda over hd800? I never tried a hi end iem, maybe its time
     
  17. Bill-P

    Bill-P Level 42 Mad Wizard

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    Yes! Actually, I prefer Andromeda to a lot of things, including the HD580 that I just got ultra to measure for me. Prior to getting Andromeda, Stax's IEM was the top of the line for me, but it had its drawbacks, which Andromeda remedies, and then more.

    There are still things that full-size headphones do better, for sure, like soundstaging, but I can't quite use them in every situation, whereas I can take Andromeda everywhere and anywhere, and still get something like 90% of the sound of a full-size desktop setup, with no significant drawback. That's ideal for me.

    But of course, it's just me. I realize everyone is different. You may not like Andromeda as much as I do even when you hear it out of the "right setup", because it's just that we hear things differently. For me, I've reached a point where I don't care much for anything else, and that's awesome. It's almost the perfect cure for G.A.S. for me.
     
  18. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    The latest issue of Katz's Corner is out, and it's an interesting read to say the least: https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/katzs-corner-episode-17-perfecting-perfection

    Specifically the second paragraph:
    So Katz chastises Focal for manufacturing inconsistencies and Tyll for keeping the Utopia on the wall of fame despite said inconsistencies; while in the same breath defending Audeze QC as the LCD-4 is suddenly a bespoke "custom-made" product. Yes that's right, the $4,000 headphone you heard at a meet or a store and then ordered may not even sound the same once it's made for you! Things just happen at the bleeding edge where we audiophiles tend to live I guess.

    Katz goes on to make some salient points in the following paragraphs RE: Floyd Toole's "circle of confusion" and reference recordings, but he still fails to realize when restating his conclusion that the listening test he set up in an earlier article was fundamentally biased towards the LCD-4.
    Don't remember what source gear was used in the listening test? Let me refresh your memory: an OPPO HA-2 DAC (uses an ESS chip, fed through USB of course), an AMB headamp (the model of which is not mentioned, I assume it's the M3, used to drive the Utopias) and an Audeze Deckard (a re-branded Matrix headamp, used to feed the LCD-4). That's right, he couldn't even get one amplifier capable of driving both headphones to eliminate that variable. The net result of his ignorance on the outcome of the listening tests should be obvious to anyone remotely familiar with this gear.

    I'll leave you with this gem from the comments section:
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2017
  19. brencho

    brencho Friend

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    Aaaahhaahhaaha jesus man talk about serious shilling, or at the very least not being able to overcome personal biases. If i had a penny for every contradiction in Katz's post... I'd have like 6 pennies. This post does a lot to invalidate anything that might have been remotely meaningful in his previous posts.
     
  20. Bill-P

    Bill-P Level 42 Mad Wizard

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    LOL

    Sorry, your post is too juicy for me to pass up on. This is just a response to that

    O2 specs taken from JDS Labs website:
    613mW into 33 ohm -> current limit = 136mA
    88mW into 600 ohm -> voltage limit = 7.3Vrms

    LCD-4 as measured on Tyll's system:
    206 Ohm @ 1KHz needs 1.13mW -> real measured sensitivity = 89.46dB SPL/mW

    In order to drive it to 120dB you'd need:
    1132mW or 15.27Vrms

    ^ both of those are impossible with O2, and that's just from reading specs. Things need to be actually measured.

    So don't you "basic math" us here, Scientist1. ;)

    Also, on topic: Audeze quoted LCD-4's impedance at 200 ohm, which is in line with Tyll's measured 206 ohm @ 1KHz but the sensitivity is highly suspect because Audeze wrote 97dB SPL/mW and that ain't what Tyll measured. The difference is roughly 8-9dB, which is not subtle.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2017

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