PIONEER Headphone Development- Your input welcome

Basically a $700 headphone that sounds like the Abyss Phi, with more a conventional fit would sell like hot cakes. Perhaps slightly more laid back treble and a tiny bit less bass would be easier to achieve taking a more conventional fit into consideration but what do I know, I've never designed a headphone. Others are saying avoid planar drivers, but hey, I like planars, so thats my suggestion.

 

Are they really? If so I agree with you. Just thought that they are priced high mostly due to the boutique brands employing them, small quantity manufacturing etc. For example Oppo PM-3 seems to have pulled off a lowish priced planar with great build quality/custom designed drivers.

The reason I suggested planars is actually because extending bass response significantly in an open dynamic driver design might be even more expensive to do (100% guess, but would explain why it`s so rare).

 

The problem is that it's extremely hard to get the quality control/consistency right with planars, just take a look at Audeze, 9 years to make the LCD-2 (on it's current LCD-2C iteration) more or less consistent sounding across all units. Hell, even the LCD-4, which is a made to order product, had those problems.

Implementation must be a pain in the ass too, as in theory planars are more resolving than dynamics, but the HD650K is still more resolving than most of them and has perfect channel matching for 300$.

I'm not saying that it's impossible, but the safe bet is that elusive HD650K upgrade with flat and impactful sub-bass.

 

I moved away from headphones to IEMs because I do most of my listening outside my home. On ears were too uncomfortable and I couldn't find any good over ears that I could throw in my bag without killing all my space.

The following HP would get me back to headphones: 1) Closed and over ear (all ears, not just tiny ones); 2) Foldable or otherwise safely and compactly transportable in a messenger bag (should include a good case); 3) Sounds great with modest amplification (e.g. GO or AK Jr); 4) Good enough sonically to hold up under quiet home listening conditions but with just a touch extra sub-bass for on the go; 5) <500.

Incidentally I enjoyed the Onkyo FC300s a good deal, other than the on ear-ness and the build quality.

 

They tend to be, yes. The PM-3 is a rare gem of consistency and build quality for the price- and is both planar and closed.. pretty impressive stuff.

There are some lower priced planars out there (often just OEMs of random chi-fi), but they tend not to be great.

 

Considering Senn and Focal are selling their relatively recent offering hd660s and elear at $500 and $1000, I do not think "competitive" dynamic cans are not particularly superior or cheaper than recent planers (AFO LCD2C Sundra ..). QC might be easier though. 650 (released 15 yrs ago) is totally one of the trickiest exceptions imo, thus may not be a feasible pricing point for a completely new product.

Still think planars and dynamics have their own inherent advantages and disadvantages. I can easily think of good-to-great implementations for each group. So mechanism choice might be more about developers' philosophy and belief.

Unlike many others mostly talked about 650, I want any future headphones on the (non-hardcore) audiophile market can favorably compete against hd800 in terms of technicalities, even though final prices would be a bit expensive (roughly thinking $700-1500 range is rather a realistic pricing target) . But must be less amp-picky, less dac-picky, and have more generous tonality.

 

Models I think you should benchmark for price and performance are the Beyerdynamic DT250, Sennheiser HD600, and Sennheiser HD26. You'll basically have match or beat in some performance metric for similar MSRP. Bonus points if you can have lower low-frequency THD than a DT250.

Given market and manufacturing realities, I suggest a conventional headband. If you can clone the HD26 headband, auto expand and all, I think a bunch of people might be interested.

Having a short 3.5mm TRRS microphone cable for phones and game consoles is arguably mandatory as well, at least an optional cable upgrade (and included in the box at higher price points).

 

Glad to hear, and hope future ventures are successful!

I'm a bit of a biocellulose fan, which explains a pair of Fostex cans being my main listening for now, and since Foster is based in Japan... hah, maybe development on the HP-3 tired you of it though. Something along the lines of a neutral-ish TH-900 (without the urushi finish, which I don't doubt contributed quite a bit to the SRP) would be absolutely killer, if the inherent treble weirdness of the material could somehow be tamed.

That aside, for the proposed price range I'm thinking a pair of competent DJ-folding circumaural closed backs that don't sound like boomy diarrhea would be a welcome addition to the market. Something along the lines of the Focal Spirit Pro, except sturdier* perhaps? It'd also sell quite a bit easier than something explicitly targeting the deep-end enthusiast market. And yes I meant circumaural— supraaural doesn't work for everyone, and is it really that weird to want something comfy that I can just fold into a briefcase or satchel?

Oh, and dynamic drivers please. TPE sounds good, maybe HD650 tuning or a fair approximation of it? Loved the sound on the one I had over, though maybe a bit less bass would have been appreciated. Definitely no to more V/U-shaped FRs, since a.) competition in that sector is all on strength of branding and honestly Pioneer doesn't have the marketing clout for it (yet), and b.) it'd fill a relatively unpopulated niche.


*reports of durability issues are all secondhand, but people whose opinions I trust have warned me off buying them even though I liked their sound a lot

 

@Lyer25 - the irony is that Pioneer actually made a "me too" DJ heafphone that was quite popular, the HDJ-1000, like a slightly more pimping and expensive alternative to the "standard" Sony MDR-V700 headphones which were standard DJ attire. They had some build quality issues, but were better than the Sony, which was shit and always broke at the swivel.

(My short stint of misspent non-youth as a bedroom DJ involved using HD-25 II, as they were far better DJ headphones -and still are- as well as rotary mixers. Mixing on the upfaders is better than the crossfader for non-tablists- and rotary mixers are like heaven.. but I digress.)

The thing is, most DJs wouldn't know good fidelity if it bent them over the mixer and rogered them soundly. Mostly they're mixing on the snares and half-deafened by the wedge monitor. Don't trust those porkers. They actually need a V-shaped sig to hear that bigass bass and to have the snares cut through, and are often half-deaf anyway.

 

The Sennheiser ear pads always felt prickly to me. Am I the only one? I mean they would wear in and become soft but initially not so much.

 

I am with you, @Elnrik
My preference leans toward much MODERN-er ones (durable, comfy, memory foam cushion, leather/pleather/micro-suede surface).
I have tried to like 600/650's pads for more than 10 years, but no.. I couldn't. Hope dekoni to come up with more 650-specific products...

 

Honestly, I've become a huge fan of real leather pads. You can wash them off easy. I usually don't have an issue with most of them getting too hot. They seal well.

The last one probably isn't important to open cans as much, and leather makes treble brighter, but there are so many bad cloth type pads I'd rather skip it.

 

In terms of sound sig (though maybe not an ideal marketing target) - I think it would be worthwhile to think about budget-minded content producers who might not have the space or funds for studio monitors. A lot of people eventually enter the hobby coming from the production side.

I've been through film school and conservatory and many many young people are looking to get into headphones (usually between 200-500 USD) because they're dissatisfied with what their monitors bring to to the table at a given price point, and they want to be able to work on the move. Everyone's got a pair of beats, 7506's, or 280's but everyone also knows they are sub-par for production applications.

I've pointed many students the direction of the HD600/650, but many people new to headphones are hesitant to mod and find them too colored to mix with...

So something even-keeled or with a gentle -3db/octave slope right out of the box would be great. Easy to drive, dynamic drivers maybe? Easily replaceable parts. Closed or semi-open. Simple design. Light but durable and comfortable.

Basically a watered-down baby version of the Eikon or Paradox.

 

Try to make a refined CAL! (Creative Aurvana Live! 1). I can't believe how a 50-100€ phone gets all the basic things right, it's also the lightest and most comfortable phone I've owned (HD6x0 is a joke, I have no idea how anyone stands to wear them). Build quality is more than fine for normal users. Just create a small and light super dynamic driver and a frame to match it. I would have no problems paying 200-300€ for a PAL!.

 

It seems like Steve has enough ideas for 3 models catering to different crowds right now. Question is, which sort is Pioneer targetting with this upcoming model (if only to temper our expectations)?
Regardless of the route, I'd think that the hd650 + better bass is a good target to aim for i.e. a super-650 in terms of tonality and price.

 

Absorb the schiit philosophy and build the most headphone for the price. Whatever comes out of it should most likely be worth the endeavor .

 

I like my Pioneer HDJ-2000 despite some flaws. When I did a big comparison of various DJ cans years ago, the Pioneers came out on top. I'm intrigued by the new HDJ-X# lineup, but not so impressed by the pricing. Rocketing up from 100 to 200 to 350 feels awfully arbitrary.

 

I think SE Master 1's headband mechanism is nice, and very confortable. Sony MDR-Z1R beta titanium headband is genius imho. Unfortunately, both sound bad enough to give me headache.

Go for HD650K type of sound with non emphasized but linear and hard hitting sub-bass, but please do not mimic the plastic construction and extra hard clamping headband

 

Above all else: Flat frequency response target, n-shape curve just fine, u-shape just bad. Low distortion obviously. This is more important than resolution.

My preference: The more open the better, for example mdr ma900. I know that means bass cancellation. Maybe put drivers on swivel so you can close.

Come with two sets of pads: velour and leather for more sound customizabiltiy.

Put a sexy pic of frequency response directly on box.

Not putting TAD on the box so you can market to a lower price point.

Is it even possible to beat the HD650 at massdrop’s $200?