Post your turntable setup...can't get enough of those spinners!

Discussion in 'Vinyl Nutjob World: Turntable and Related Gear' started by shaizada, Sep 28, 2015.

  1. Chris F

    Chris F Boyz 4 Now Fanatic - Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    723
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    The principle is that in a suspended turntable the platter will apply a force (torque/twist) to the suspension as it rotates. Some say this gives them their reputation for sounding "laid back" or creates a slight blurring effect on the sound. The bottom platter is there to counter this force and by doing so creates an extremely stable platform that is isolated from all external interference. I don't have enough experience to tell you if the "laid back" thing is true but I can tell you after owning a Sparta and now the Pro the two platter thing definitely works. Both the Sparta and Pro are extremely high resolution, image spectacularly, and are extremely quiet.

    The differences between Sparta and Pro are the 12" arm, the plinths are sandwich phenolic (vs skeleton), and the platters are heavier with beefier motors. Louis tells me the plinths make the most difference in the sound (and most of the price difference as well). The second big difference is that you can use the SCPS with the Pro. Two banks of super capacitors that switch every 60 seconds and provide ultra low impedance output to the DC motors while completely isolating the table from the power grid. Kind of sounds like a bit of a gimmick when I tell you the power supply makes a major (not minor) audible difference to a turntable but it's true.

    Anyhow, sound is excellent. If you guys are interested I can do a few needledrop samples; hit me with some requests. I do a lot of LP transfers for my DJ gigs so I am very much looking forward to getting started with these.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2017
    hanzo, brencho, powermatic and 7 others like this.
  2. Saburo

    Saburo Rando

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2017
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    So. California
    Basis Audio Ovation w/ Rockport 6000 Air bearing 'arm. Versa Dynamics 2.0 w/ air bearing arm, and air bearing platter with vacuum hold down.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    shaizada, drfindley, Wfojas and 10 others like this.
  3. powermatic

    powermatic Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2016
    Likes Received:
    403
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Nice, and really interesting deck/arm combinations, but let's get some carts mounted up so they're not just display items!
     
  4. Saburo

    Saburo Rando

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2017
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    So. California
    hardly display items they're well-used. :)My main carts currently are a VdH Colibri and Transfiguration Proteus. I took these pics for the insurance co. before they were boxed up. i'm in the middle of a move (divorce).
     
    Chris F, nonamodnar and bazelio like this.
  5. Marvey

    Marvey Sundry Accessory

    Staff Member Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    28,521
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Calabasas, CA
    IMG_20171106_203710.jpg

    Finally got this up and running. @Wfojas sold me the package for an unbelievable deal for a while back. VPI TNT 3.5 with the air ball feet (need to pump up with bicycle tire pump), two platters (lead/delrin and aluminum), periphery ring, and SDS - just no arm. By fortune, I happened to have a 10.5 arm sitting around which I originally intended as a second arm my Classic 4. The person I bought the arm from said he wasn't including an armboard, but when it shipped, it happen to come with the armboard. I decided to experiment and use a nylon string instead of the stretchy rubber band from VPI. It's amazing how vinyl sources can bring magic mediocre setups (BW speakers and proamp) such as this one.
     
  6. monacelli

    monacelli Wow, I made it this far without being a friend?

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2017
    Likes Received:
    272
    Trophy Points:
    53
    Location:
    PNW
    This is a really interesting idea. You're using a nylon string in place of the belt? I imagine the tension would be distributed more evenly this way since the nylon string is less elastic than a standard TT belt. Was that sort of what you were going for? Now I'm curious if it would be possible to measure differences in speed stability between the two
     
  7. Stapsy

    Stapsy Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Likes Received:
    245
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Is some amount of stretch desirable? I am curious how you made a loop out of the nylon string. If it is as simple as tying a knot, you might want to check out fishing line. There is a huge variety of styles and gauges with varying degrees of stretch.
     
    Wfojas likes this.
  8. Wfojas

    Wfojas Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    781
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    CA
    I think
    i included the two armboards, i didnt need them, in case you wanted to use a triplanar or SME, too. Or an ET-2, I think. A couple of things can still change the sound, stuff I never got around to. You can change the suspension with squash balls and a flat plate (VPI is out of them but they are fairly common). A rim drive which is more challenging to find, two belts work better than one for sure ( ask @shaizada for a cheap place to get them, like $7 each, i think), different clamps change the sound. Good to see you got around to getting them together. Now you hear why i said warm by default?
     
    JK47 likes this.
  9. Marvey

    Marvey Sundry Accessory

    Staff Member Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    28,521
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Calabasas, CA
    Yeah, just simple knot for these thin strings. I'd go for a bloodknot for thicker strings. So far I've tried dental floss, nylon, silk, and fishing line. All very similar results, but decided on the nylon. The concern with the elastic belts is that their tension may vary throughout the length of the belt. We just don't know how one part might stretch differently from another part as the belt drives the platter. Multiple belts are certainly better than one. I have two VPI belts running on my other TT (the Classic 4) and am thinking about adding another. I tried using a nylon string for the Classic, but because of how the motor is coupled to the pllinth, I get sympahetic vibrations from the tensioned string and motor.

    The effect of the nylon string compared to the VPI elastic belt is similiar to a jitter reducer with digital. More focus, less blur, crisper transients, blacker background. There can be too much of this and hence why backed off from silk to nylon. Yes, I can measure speed stability. Will do this when I have time.

    The other armboards will come in handy in the future. I have my eyes set on a triplanar, mainly because I love how it adjusts and appreciate the engineering around it. I might grab one of those fancy $$$ Stillpoints clamps. I am not a big fan of the screw on clamp for the VPI tables. Seems to "choke" the sound. As far as warmth, not as much as I thought. The nylon thread might have pushed the sound a tick more in the leaner direction, but tonally, the table does not sound far off from the Classic 4. I was actually expecting more warmth. The aluminum platter probably has a lot to do with it. Also, I think the 12" arm (on Classic 4) that I have (metal wrapped with a vinyl or rubber sleeve) is warmer than the 10.5" arms. The 10.5" arms seem to sound more "precise and concise", the 12" arms have more flow.

    I am actually shocked how good these vintage TNT tables sound. Certainly a lot of more room to tweak and play with than the Classic tables.
     
    monacelli and Wfojas like this.
  10. Wfojas

    Wfojas Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    781
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    CA
    You should try it with the Kuzma, that really does put it over. I just sold a Stillpoint LPI, I would have asked you had i known. That tends to reduce overall dynamics a bit but pushes voices into a really sweet light, but depending on how the recording was made, can be a bit much.

    nd yeah, the platter definitely does lighten up the sound. Also, the air bladders should be inflated to as just they firm up. Too much, and the isolation is reduced, you could try varying that too.

    So many things.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 7, 2017
  11. Stapsy

    Stapsy Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Likes Received:
    245
    Trophy Points:
    43
    At the risk of entering audio nervosa territory, I would recommend trying flourocarbon fishing line if you want to experiment more. It has less stretch than standard nylon monofilament, but more than the silk thread. The trade off is that it transmits more vibration than nylon.

    The big downside is that some of the cheaper lines tend to deform when stretched instead of springing back into shape like nylon. That might get annoying for your application.
     
    numbersixx likes this.
  12. numbersixx

    numbersixx Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2015
    Likes Received:
    313
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    London, England
    You are Quint and I claim my bucket of Chum.
     
  13. bazelio

    bazelio Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2015
    Likes Received:
    2,488
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Totally agreed on the engineering of the Triplanar. However, knowing how you appreciate resolution and detail, I might suggest avoiding the Triplanar. As Willy says, Kuzma is probably the way to go and you'll have no lack of appreciation for its engineering...
     
    Wfojas likes this.
  14. Forza AudioWorks

    Forza AudioWorks MOT: Forza AudioWorks

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2017
    Likes Received:
    167
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Poland
    Not into this stuff that much, but I've heard lots of good things about Kuzma.
     
    Wfojas and Chris F like this.
  15. bxh

    bxh Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2016
    Likes Received:
    332
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Canada
    I haven't posted anything in regard to a few recent changes, such as acquiring a Transcription phono stage or this new Concept.

    Still dialing this in but this is my most recent system change, a ClearAudio Concept with the Verify tonearm. I started reading about the Verify tonearm and became fascinated with the magnetic pseudo-bearing it uses for it's simplicity and ease of use and I was lucky enough to find a good deal on one.

    I am using a 103r on it right now which, admittedly is probably on the low side of compliance for this tonearm, but for short term use it should be alright, no major tracking issues. I'm eyeing up a Quintet Black and will be able to listen to one paired with my Transcription next weekend before I make the final decision. Another cart I have in mind is the slightly cheaper Hana SL which may allow me to put some more money aside for an upcoming speaker project.

    I was warned that this arm requires a sturdy floor, and damn is that true, any footsteps slightly heavier than normal are very audible, I'm going to have to explore some options to resolve this. I will have to do some more listening, but so far, speed stability, low end response, staging, and detail retrieval are greater than on my HW-19.

    [​IMG]

    The EC Transcription absolutely dwarfs the Concept, even in the shop it didn't look that small. I currently have Telefunken 12AX7s and a NOS GE 6SN7 in there and it's a beautiful combination with the 103r. The 103r is very balanced and run through the Transcription it transforms into a much more forward sound, which I enjoy. I have been listening to a lot more blues lately and screeching guitars and horns sound correct and in your face without being overly piercing. This combination also renders vocals wonderfully, such as Margo Price showing her raspiness with no sibilant qualities to it.

    Below is a snippet from Craig in regard to the circuit design:

    The three RIAA time constants are employed passively. The first half of the 12AX7 drives the 3180uS, and 318uS time constants, the second half of the same tube tube drives the 75uS time constant. In addition the TA employs a fourth time constant 3.14uS to recover phase from the 50kHz filter used in the cutting process. By placing the 75uS passive low pass filter after the gain stages most of the noise is rolled off. This is a no feedback design so the sound stage is much more open then any solid-state design regardless of price. The tubes in the TA need to be matched, and quiet. Listen to the amp first with the supplied tubes, and then try your Telefunkens. The 6SN7 is used as an impedance converter, cathode follower. The difference between the best sounding 6SN7 and the new production tube used is very slight, but you can try other tubes there. The only unknown is the grid capacitance. The TA final EQ time constant takes into consideration that the new stock 6SN7 tubes used have a consistent grid capacitance. If your NOS tube is different it could change the top end response slightly.
    I've still got the stock Sovteks from Craig as well that I've been meaning to try again and get a more complete comparison together, so look for that soon. I'm interested to hear how rolling the 6SN7 will effect the top end. I'll also be comparing the stock umbillical power cable with the Endorphin from Stefan AudioArt, I just simply haven't had the time.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018 at 11:36 AM
    Xecuter, powermatic, Chris F and 13 others like this.
  16. Chris F

    Chris F Boyz 4 Now Fanatic - Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    723
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    If the transcription is slightly forward I would go with the Hana SL as it's slightly laid back. Good synergy. If you want even more forward then get the Ortofon Black.
     
    ButtUglyJeff, bxh and Stapsy like this.
  17. bxh

    bxh Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2016
    Likes Received:
    332
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Canada
    I quite like how forward and engaging it is actually. I do think the Hana may be more suited to headphone listening as I mentioned in the cartridge thread, but I've been getting away from headphones as of late and looking to concentrate on 2ch.

    I am somewhat of a detail/speed freak, and I think the Quintet would be better suited to my tastes.

    I did compare the Stax remasters of Albert King's I'll Play The Blues for You today, and I found my analog/2ch rig to be more mid-forward, while my SFD1 and HD800 was a little upper mid recessed which shouldn't really come as a surprise. Odd comparison or not, vocals and horns were way more forward on the LP.

    I'm thinking it may have something to do with the NOS GE installed in the Transcription. I'm becoming more interested in trying a few different 6SN7s to see how I can dial in the top end.
     
    ButtUglyJeff, Stapsy and Chris F like this.
  18. JK47

    JK47 Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,771
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    "Surf City USA"
    Which model of step up transformer does the EC Transcription use?

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the Transcription MC circuit was designed for the regular Denon DL-103's impedance of 40ohms. The 103R's 14ohm impedance and Quintet's 5ohm impedance may be less than ideal for the Transcription, the Hana's 30ohm impedance may be more in line with what the Transcription was designed to play well with.

    It's always possible to rewire the step up transformers (depending on model of step ups used) inside to play nicer with the lower impedance carts. Craig would be the best source to ask for specifics.

    Having toggled the varying options with my DIY Cinemag SUT, I can assure you there will be a difference in sound.
     
    ButtUglyJeff, bxh and insidious meme like this.
  19. bxh

    bxh Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2016
    Likes Received:
    332
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Canada
    @JK47
    What exactly does it effect? I haven’t heard a 103 with the Transcription so I have no baseline for the changes you mentioned. I believe it uses the 1131/1254 Cinemags, I’ll pop it open in the morning to confirm.
     
  20. Stapsy

    Stapsy Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Likes Received:
    245
    Trophy Points:
    43
    I assume it is just a step up in front of the MM stage. If it was designed for the 40ohm output impedence of the 103 then the Transcription would need 400ohm input impedance. A simple 1:10 step up in front of a 47k ohm MM input would put you right in that ballpark. You could theoretically up the ratio to 1:15 or 1:20 for the 103r or quintet without worrying about adversly impacting the SNR. These changes would make the loading impedance too low for a 40ohm cart.

    I was under the impression that if load impedance is at least 10x greater than the output impedance there isn’t really an impact on sound by changing the load impedance. I am interested to hear if anyone has had different experiences. Perhaps it also depends on the characteristics of the cart?
     
    bxh and JoshMorr like this.

Share This Page