Schiit Yggdrasil Stereophile Review + Measurements

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by purr1n, Jan 20, 2017.

  1. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex SBAF's Imelda Marcos

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2015
    Likes Received:
    14,051
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The reality is that, with the business model they've built, publications such as Stereophile can't afford to not publicly service the big advertisers. That's why they're dinosaurs.
    Or maybe they're old and can't hear well anymore but haven't realized it.
     
  2. Grahad2

    Grahad2 Red eyes from too much anime

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2017
    Likes Received:
    1,162
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Singapore
    To be fair JA is probably reading this thread while:
    [​IMG]
     
  3. Donald North

    Donald North Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2015
    Likes Received:
    932
    Trophy Points:
    93
    I started reading Stereophile in 1990 and back then only a select handful of products in each category were class A rated. More were rated Class B. Now it seems like "everything is awesome".
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2017
  4. TonyNewman

    TonyNewman Validated by Tyll removing Utopia from WOF

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2016
    Likes Received:
    290
    Trophy Points:
    63
    I don't blame Stereophile for wanting to make a buck. I blame Stereophile for misrepresenting themselves. They are mouthpieces for the gear suppliers / advertisers - little better than an extension of their marketing departments, whoring themselves out for the dollar.
     
  5. BenjaminBore

    BenjaminBore Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    May 23, 2016
    Likes Received:
    2,842
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    London, UK
    Point being that this is how they make the most bucks, and if John Atkinson failed to make those bucks then he would simply be replaced with someone who can.

    It is a wonder, and to his credit, that Tyll Hertsens has been able to effectively toe the line at Innerfidelity.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2017
  6. TonyNewman

    TonyNewman Validated by Tyll removing Utopia from WOF

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2016
    Likes Received:
    290
    Trophy Points:
    63
    My point is that Stereophile try to represent themselves as a source of objective and useful gear reviews, when they are anything but. They are helping to mislead the consumer into poor purchasing decisions based on their own financial best interest - that is what I am taking a shot at.
     
  7. BenjaminBore

    BenjaminBore Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    May 23, 2016
    Likes Received:
    2,842
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    London, UK
    Precisely. That is where the honesty and ethics suffer, in the pursuit of financial gain.

    I think we're saying the same thing. i.e. They're putting money before integrity, and of course we as consumers do not appreciate attempts at deception from those we should be trusting regarding how best to spend our money.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2017
  8. iDesign

    iDesign Almost "Made"

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2015
    Likes Received:
    230
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Agreed. Rob Watts wrote a brief post on April 1st explaining that John Atkinson had difficulty with the measurements that may have been caused by EMC issues in his lab. That should cast even more doubt about all his other measurements and its clear he has a bias towards some manufacturers.
     
  9. landroni

    landroni Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2016
    Likes Received:
    1,164
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Must have been an April Fool's joke, as Rob Watts regularly cites "measurements" resolving 180 dB for his own DACs...
     
  10. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Likes Received:
    4,276
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Personally I don't think that anyone reads Stereophile to actually make buying decisions. At best S'phile is something niche people enjoy to feel acknowledgement for the gear they've bought and to be a part of a [dying] movement.
     
  11. Maxx134

    Maxx134 Dunning–Kruger effect poster boy

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    818
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    NYC
    To me the Dave is not better , but actually a mostly different impression in perspective ...

    Here is an analogy..

    Two friends watching the movie "Avatar"...

    With the Dave = wow this is a great movie!
    The visuals in such high definition...
    Fantastic!!! .. Simply beautiful!!...
    :p:D


    Now, with the Yggdrasil =
    yeah I know,
    and wasnt it a great idea have the best seating in this "movie theatre".?(!)
    Ooo, it's a little chilly in here...
    Popcorn smells good...
    Got your 3D glasses on?..
    Ugg, the screen has a stain...
    Shh, be quiet..


    Oh wait,
    sorry you wasn't "aware" of all that extra stuff unless your using the Yggdrasil...
    :confused::eek:

    Have to agree though, great movie visuals by the way...
    ;):cool:


    Actually, my take is that MrSpeakers is more a shrewd businessman, and does extremely well in that sense.
    Can't knock him for taking advantage of the image he built,
    And having fooled buyers with "good value" image is no shame on them.
    But historically, as a sonics-to-price value??
    o_O
    Construction-wise his cans are still great quality though.

    **edit** we see this smart buainess sense also in " zmf ",
    By catering to fan base and have thier own sound.


    If memory recalls, your missing a little history..
    hifiman had and still has quite a few good value cans,
    like the 560, which to me actually perform "better" than an original "Ether".


    Yeah ok, so how many thousands more for the PSAudio?


    It's sounds more "balanced" than the Ether,
    but it's main attraction is slim size, and "closed" form factor.
    It does not exactly sonically beat out anything in it's "reasonable"(?) $800 price range" .
    So You pay for its uniqueness .


    Wow dam... A Crap review huh.
    Dam I remember Stereofile only saving grace was Sam's corner,
    and rest was always fancy BS gear...

    My pops used to have all them magazines saved for years in boxes.
    He gave up on "Stereofile" long ago, and stayed with "The Absolute Sound" for a while,
    until I ended up buying some England magazine for him, called "What HiFi"...
    A nice magazine still available which has ratings on sensibly priced gear..
    :headbang:
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2017
  12. bazelio

    bazelio Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2015
    Likes Received:
    3,417
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yeah, and I remember in the mid 90s Sam Tellig helped sell a lot of Radio Shack CD players. Nary an advertisement by Rat Shack in the rag, but the problem was it wasn't anything special. I still have one in my rafters somewhere...
     
  13. AllanMarcus

    AllanMarcus Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2015
    Likes Received:
    2,969
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Los Alamos, NM
    Home Page:
    I disagree, at least for me. I read it to learn about new stuff, to get some educated impressions (which I take with a grain of salt), for the section on music reviews, and for the advertisements, which sometimes helps me discover, or remember, products I'd like to learn more about.

    I think John tries to be impartial, but he's also human. The argument about about stereophile reviewing paid advertisers' products better is very old, and hashed out to death in the letters to the editor and responses over the years. I don't think it's true that advertising directly affects editorial content there, but I think the reverse might be true. A good review might lead the vendor to advertise. Correlation does not mean causation.

    I'm as skeptical as the next guy, but I don't think there is a conspiracy here. I think Marv may have pointed out that some of these folks are friends and may have gotten chummy and some of that may have leaked into the review. Take it with a grain of salt. I don't think Schiit sales are suffering.

    I totally understand the concern as a matter of principle, though. A well worded and brief letter to the editor from Marv might actually get published, and responded to, and more importantly might lead to more accurate reporting.
     
  14. Dino

    Dino Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2016
    Likes Received:
    3,332
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I bought one - Optimus CD-3400. I played a few CDs through it (I remember 'Nirvana - In Utero' was the last straw) and decided to return it. Then I ended up playing one more CD 'Ken Nordine - Word Jazz Vol. 1'. I remember thinking that Ken Nordine's voice sounded more like my LPs than I had ever heard on CD. I decided to hang onto it for a bit longer. It seemed like the mid-range sounded better to me than my other CD player (Rotel RCD-955) but outside of the midrange the Rotel sounded better to me. I kept it for midrange-centric recordings until I upgraded my Rotel CD player to a JVC XL-Z1050 and the CD-3400 lost it's midrange advantage.

    Wrapping back to Stereophile: They did have ads for the Sequerra Power Station, a dedicated base/power supply for the CD-3400. It was over $1000, $1100 IIRC. I don't recall Stereophile mentioning the Sequerra which was probably a good idea.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. bozebuttons

    bozebuttons Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Likes Received:
    153
    Trophy Points:
    43
    I still have a CD3400 as well sitting in a box with some other sony discmans,I almost picked up the Sequerra power supply used for about $ 400. years back but thought better of it . I didn't think the CD3400 was that special.
     
  16. Dino

    Dino Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2016
    Likes Received:
    3,332
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Did you put your CD-3400 inside a closed phone book, @bozebuttons ? That was when the magic began according to Sam Tellig. (I didn't, btw) :)
     
  17. bozebuttons

    bozebuttons Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Likes Received:
    153
    Trophy Points:
    43
    No never tried that:p
     
  18. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,777
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    The noise floor thing on FFTs is deceptive. There's processing gain for FFTs. As we increase the number of bins in an FFT, the bins get narrower and thus less noise in the frequency domain plot. Just the way things are calculated. Also, the FFT windows used also affect this. I'll let @ultrabike explain better.

    This is why Stereophile DAC plots have super low -130db FFT noise floors for 16-bit signals when the DNR of 16-bits is only about 96db. It's entirely probable that JA used less FFT bins than CHORD (they get super low FFT floors) in his measurements. But as long as JA is consistent on his AP settings, the measurements he takes should be comparable to other DACs' measurements he's taken. The good thing is that it's all relative. If the -130db noise floor represents 16-bits, then a noise floor -24db below that at -154db would be indicative of 20 bits of resolution.

    The irony here of course is that CHORD has tended to market or even brag about their measurements as a result of their one trillion tap processing. JA was actually polite enough not to call them out too harshly by omitting the "noisy" 24-bit -90db sinewave and actually heaping praise with the conclusion: "Its measured performance is beyond reproach".

    What's odd is that JA's statement "When I changed the (CHORD DAVE) bit depth of the incoming data from 16 to 24 with a dithered tone at –90dBFS, the noise floor dropped by 23dB (fig.5), implying resolution close to 20 bits" seems rather inconsistent with his Facebook tweet that the Yggdrasil was using "obsolete 20-bit" parts.

    What's even more troubling is Stereophile's A+ category which requires a DAC to handle DSD or 24/96 data. None of these "Class A+" DACs seem to be resolve 24-bits, more like 21-bits, at best; and strangely, there are no measurements of the one multi-bit DAC on the list: totaldac-d1-tube-mk2-dac.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2017
  19. Darren G

    Darren G Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2017
    Likes Received:
    589
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Pennsylvania, PA
    The Stereophile review had effectively no impact on my Yggdrasil decision (or any other). It's fine, but there are so many sites and forums to read reviews on. Now the large number of people here and elsewhere who had good things to write about Yggdrasil, did.
     
  20. Ringingears

    Ringingears Honorary BFF

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2015
    Likes Received:
    3,659
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Northern Californium Valley
    I'm am not going to comment on measurements. Not my expertise. I can only say that the Yggdrasil with my modestly priced Ember 2 made my jaw hit the floor. I have Marv as a witness. I was sure I was listening to 24/96. Nope. It was 16/44.1. I own and have listened to both versions many times for what it's worth. I have read Stereophile since 1977. Have bought a lot of equipment based on their reviews. I have been having the same issues for a while with different comments on measurements that are very nearly identical or worse, high praise for equipment with worse measurements than other equipment with better measurements. This "beyond reproach" comment for the former and "bothered" with the measurements of the latter is suspect.

    And that's all I have to say about that. Want a chocolate? Mama always said Stereophile reviews are like a box of chocolates, you never know what your gonna get.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2017

Share This Page