Should SBAF do a cable expose?

Discussion in 'General Audio Discussion' started by Rthomas, Jan 31, 2017.

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  1. Rthomas

    Rthomas Friend

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    https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=d...AhXrCcAKHcHwBJEQ_AUIBigB#imgrc=qZ85Kdtw7RGn1M:

    I have nothing against Double Helix cables personally. I’ve never bought anything from them but this graphic is representative of everything wrong in the cable industry.

    There is absolutely no data to back it up at all. Anybody with even a slightly scientific bent of mind should dismiss this company’s claims based on this alone.
     
  2. Grahad2

    Grahad2 Red eyes from too much anime

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    The thing that galls me most about DHC is that he keeps claiming other cables that are not his are crap as they are not science and he is molecular biologist (or something) so he knows science and have science'd the living heck out of his cables.
     
  3. GoodEnoughGear

    GoodEnoughGear Evil Dr. Shultz‎

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    Well if alternative truth is truthiness, all you need in your alternative science is proofiness.
     
  4. Rthomas

    Rthomas Friend

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    Molecular biologist? What does that have to do with Audio cables?:D
     
  5. beemerphile

    beemerphile Friend

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    Agreed. To prove cable truthiness, you need a Molecular Psychologist.
     
  6. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    Too right! :D

    The most interest sound processing goes on inside our heads. We even have feedback loops which determine what actually "gets in." I am not a scientist, and have to take the dumbed-down versions of this stuff. My maths, for instance, does not really extend much beyond simple arithmetic. I'm grateful to some of the people, including pioneers like JJ (Johnston), who have made this stuff understandable.
     
  7. rainer.skill

    rainer.skill New

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    In a blind test I failed to distinguish the mobo out of my macbook and a Matrix M-Stage even though I was pretty sure there was a huge difference before the testing. Doesn't mean there was no difference, maybe I just suck hard at blind tests :)
     
  8. ButtUglyJeff

    ButtUglyJeff Stunningly beautiful IRL

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    Blind testing creates fatigue quite quickly...
     
  9. GoodEnoughGear

    GoodEnoughGear Evil Dr. Shultz‎

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    I recall vaguely a reference to a hi-res vs standard blind test on audiences that did not ask for responses, but recorded physical signs of engagement with the music like head bobbing, toe tapping and so on. The upshot was that the hi-res resulted in subjects displaying more involvement with the music.

    I have a feeling that differences that may seem minuscule in a conscious, cognitive sense actually leave a bigger impression in the subconscious, especially over time. So I don't believe it necessarily follows that not being able to abx something indicates there is no meaningful difference.
     
  10. scootermafia

    scootermafia MOIST - Double Helix Cables

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    Not here to discuss cables, as they're really not worth discussing. Nobody has ever scientifically proven a relationship between cable design and specific sound qualities. Nobody has ever said "low capacitance means more soundstage." The graph simply represents my own belief that my more costly cables, which are OCC silver instead of OCC copper, with a larger gauge, sound better than the entry level. Cheap cables are the best value, as often times stock cables are really not made well - many stock cables are spliced at the y-split and most IEM cables are made of cadmium copper tinsel which is not pure copper or especially conductive. Expensive cables are a poor value comparatively, but do perform a little better. Cables are something you either believe in or you don't.
    I do have a background in microbial metabolism research, I'm not a fake scientist (google scholar: P Bradstock krumholz) but it doesn't directly help me with cable design, other than giving me skepticism and a willingness to read papers. There is a well known cable company that has a spring-mass-damper chart (which describes a suspension system, like that of a car) on their cable page as window dressing, that is fake science. The materials I pick are the ones that I think are the highest performing conductors. However, nobody's forcing anyone to buy from me. And there are cables out there at the same price or higher that are either made with generic materials, are made of very, very thin copper at the same price as a larger silver cable of mine, claim "7N-8N" purity, or are made of some sort of low-conductivity alloy. The best I can say is that cables do "something" but it's up to the listener to decide if it's worthwhile and I certainly don't recommend anyone buying cables before they finish their system and buy the best pair of headphones they can afford.
     
  11. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    I find unless your cables are flimsy shit that doesn't work like shitty offbrand USB cables (monoprice and belkin digitla cables just work), shitty optical cables (al loptical cables?), shitty microphonic crap, shitty Monoprice RCA cables that are all equally terrible, shitty intrument cables that don't lock due to shitty design, or piano wire like the HD 25, then they are more different than actually better.

    Shitty XLR and AES cables are real though.
     
  12. anetode

    anetode Friend

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    Well ain't that some self-serving hypocritical bullshit.
     
  13. DigMe

    DigMe Friend

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    I have one monoprice cable in my headphone chain. It's their 1.5ft 22awg shielded RCA cable. Seems like pretty good quality to me. I've seen that you typically have specific reasons for your observations so can you elaborate on its terribleness?
     
  14. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    way too tight connectors. Easy to break off the plating or damage older equipment they are connected to.

    The thinner ones pick up a ton of noise and sound terrible.
     
  15. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    FWIW, I didn't have tight connector issues with Monoprice upper end offerings (RCA). Their super cheap stuff may not fit right though. Actually too loose sometimes.

    I did have severe problems with Monster Cables. They ruined the Subwoofer output of my father-in-laws Pioneer receiver. Had to rewire his sub using hot signal instead.
     
  16. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    I've had the same issue, consistently.

    And I've had the blades on the RCA connectors snap off while trying to get them connected as well ... what you see inside is not exactly reassuring.

    So I've stopped using them entirely and when I need something dirt-cheap, and/or don't want to build it myself, I go with either KabelDirekt or Mediabridge, both available via Amazon. Though most of the time I build myself a proper cable.
     
  17. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Locking thread. PM an admin or mod (just not me) if any objections.
     
  18. anetode

    anetode Friend

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    [edit - had most of this typed up before the thread lock, abusing my mod privileges to post it now]
    God, it was easier for me to quit opioids than to stop arguing with audiophiles, yet here I am again chasing the dragon. All right, I might as well try to make a more constructive post than my last one. The aptly nick'd GoodEnoughGear offers a great jumping-off point:

    Absolutely, it is useful to model consciousness as the interface between the senses/short term memory and the conglomerate of long term memories with established patterns of cognition. Following that the two most common approaches to discerning audio fidelity are to implicitly trust your immediate appraisal of a few well defined markers, like tonality of vocals or dynamics, or to engage in multiple extended sessions of critical listening. The former will always be more useful to the grizzled veteran, emboldened by a deep pool of prior experiences and technical knowledge. It's also the method most likely too fool you. The latter is difficult to accomplish in meet settings, let alone blind testing sessions, so it is relegated to longform reviews. It's also a learning process which necessitates continual reappraisal and time to structure a robust mental schema. In that respect not being able to abx something turns out to have very little to do with you interpreting a meaningful, worthwhile difference.

    Again, absolutely. Everything at a hifi store, audio meet, online review or even a fellow audiophiles plumage-like rig will work to inspire a cognitive bias that is usually in favor of the fanciest product. Technical knowlege only leads to a cognitive dissonance left to be resolved by the listener's preference. I'm not at all surprised that there are engineers who buy into cables despite knowing that the difference between properly constructed cables are many orders of magnitude below established thresholds of audibility. It doesn't mean that they are insane, or somehow morally flawed, or stupid, or worthy of ridicule. It just means that they hear what they consider to be a worthwhile difference. The question of why is perhaps best left not to engineers but to psychologists. After all what we really measure with DBT isn't the gear, but the test taker who is listening to it.

    Here we get to the rough and dirty numbers game. If you want meaningful data, be prepared to have your testing methodology torn to shreds. "Plenty of people have passed DAC blind tests"? My ass.

    Hey, I'm all for trying out different testing protocols, as long as they're not sloppy enough to ensure one result over another. Double-blind means employing disinterested third parties to act as confederates, ensuring not only level matching but hiding all visual cues. Longer sessions spread over several days? Sure! Pitting a control group of random people against leet audiophiles? All the better.

    One experiment I've entertained in my head over the years involves renting out a hotel room for a week, then booking testees for a series of 30-50 minute sessions listening to audio samples they've pre-submitted. A steward would facilitate the test and maintain a comfortable relaxed environment while some nerd-for-hire (stats grad student) would sit in a different room and run/record the test itself. It's a sizable investment in time and money to run something like this, but it should address a lot of the common concerns about blind testing.
     
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