Sony MDR-Z1R Measurements Based Review

Discussion in 'Headphone Measurements' started by purr1n, Feb 14, 2017.

  1. Lurker

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    Regarding Fact #1, what if you were make the base of what you want to coat thinner, so the total mass is the same? Say one 10µm layer of LCP compared to one layer of 6.5µm LCP coated with a layer of 2µm Al. Which would perform better?
    It is common practice to use a combination of different materials like AKG for example who used stiffer polycarbonate laminated with a layer of better damped polyurethane. Sennheiser has their duofol shenanigans which is basically the same.
    Even the overrated biocellulose is similar ie. fibers set into a plastic matrix :^3

    On another note, too bad about the Z1R measuring so poorly. Bet it won't sound better than than the elear because the z1r has weird bass and rings at a frequency that is not annoying :^)
    I think 1000$ would be a good price given the very nice build (look at that box). Z7 used to be 699 and now I can get it for 350- half the price.

    Btw, this is a closed headphone.
     
  2. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    PPP (proper price point) for the Z1R should be $999. This includes credits for the nice build, the super nice box, and it being a closed headphone.
     
  3. Elnrik

    Elnrik Super Friendly

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    If it were, I would own one. I really think many OEMS in this hobby price themselves out of profitability on so many things.
     
  4. Bill-P

    Bill-P Level 42 Mad Wizard

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    Let's say Sony has somehow magically made the inner diaphragm thinner, and assuming they have also somehow developed the technology to perfectly coat that diaphragm to be not any thicker than another diaphragm, and also let's assume they have defied physics and made it so that mass is the same between the two as well. (Hah! :p) And I'll even throw in the final "assumption" that uniformity of the coating is perfect so it has perfect density distribution all throughout.

    Even then, the "solidity" of the single-material diaphragm as opposed to something that's a mash-up between 2 entirely different things (solid aluminum and flexible LCP) will still be superior. This is the same reason why machining a computer/phone/chassis thing out of a single block of aluminum gives greater structural integrity than an assembled combination of aluminum, brass, silver, gold, diamond, etc...

    And case in point: you don't see Sennheiser mention "duofol" with their HD800. Hint hint. ;)

    And even more case in point: Focal Utopia's "diaphragm" is essentially just a Beryllium dome.

    But beyond that point, I'd say biocellulose tech has been around longer than aluminum-coated LCP, and thus people have had longer time to figure it out. Also, I think it's "easier" to achieve a thinner and lower-mass biocellulose diaphragm than making an aluminum-coated LCP diaphragm to be the same thickness and mass, due to the inherent difference between "fibers" and "aluminum" like how the former is lighter than the latter.

    I mean... not to beat on Sony or anything. I love the Z7, and I also will likely own the Z1R at $999 a pop but... the fact remains that Sony has made some very questionable decisions over the past few years: making PS3 overly complicated was the first thing, then PS Vita came, and the last straw? They sold their Vaio computer division completely.

    Using aluminum-coated LCP? Until I see evidences pointing to how well it can match biocellulose and hell, plain-jane plastic diaphragms, duofol or whatever, I'll continue to believe it's a misstep. :)
     
  5. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

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    I really don't think mass matters as much as you do. I even think that in a driver of that size the extra mass is preferable since it will shift resonances up. Shifiting resonances up or controlling them with a 70mm driver is really the only thing you want.
    Perfect coating uniformity might even make the resonance worse. Fostex uses weird shapes on their cones and domes for widebanders for a reason.

    I also don't think a completely solid material like on the Focal phones would have been preferable. The Elear already has trouble keeping its breakup above 20kHz and that's on a 40mm driver. The Utopia diaphragm might be thicker.
    The HD800 driver may not be duofoil, but I believe it's a very different material from the one used for the HD6X0. This and the special geometry keeps breakup very high at 38kHz. I think it behaves as a very rigid, piston-like diaphragm, while actually being made out of a rather soft material. The resonance at 38kHz is super nasty.

    Anyway, I think for a 70mm driver you're mainly looking for high internal loss, as breakup will most likely occur in the audioband.
     
  6. Bill-P

    Bill-P Level 42 Mad Wizard

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    Mass definitely matters, because otherwise electrostatics may well not hold any advantage (or conversely, disadvantages) over conventional dynamic designs. (or at least not over orthos, but we all know the story)

    I think it's actually the reverse: diaphragm mass will matter less and less as the driver scales up in size because then any small mg increase will be greatly offset by the strength and weight of the magnet anyway. For headphones, though, I think every single bit effects it. Otherwise here's a simple test: take your HD600 apart and apply a thin layer of glue over a small part of the cone. See if it'll "not matter as much" then.

    And Utopia has a lighter cone than Elear. That's why it sounds faster. In case you missed that:
    Refer to: http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/worlds-best-headphone-focal-utopia#bfxjoIsJvYiC1ova.99

    HD580/600/650/6XX uses duofol diaphragm, btw. HD800 uses something else entirely and is seemingly thinner/lighter even compared to HD6xx drivers. That would at least explain why it's more efficient than HD6xx. I'm sure you can agree with me that at least HD800 drivers are superior to HD6xx drivers from a technical point of view.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
  7. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

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    Actually the drop of glue test sounds interesting. Did that decrease the efficiency?

    The advantages of an estat I see are that it has a very large diaphragm, while probably having more benign breakup issues in the audioband. That's it.

    That's exactly why I thought that it probably has a thicker cone - 15mg is most likely not enough to explain the difference that should be caused by the different densities of the two different materials. Not sure exactly how much Al and how much Mg it is, since Mg has a lower density than Be. The voice coil is probably a not so insignificant part of the moving mass, too.
    Also I'm not entirely convinced the moving mass has much to do with the "speed" of the sound. Maybe something like the Bl/Mms, but I don't really think that works, either. Looking at the efficiency of the driver is probably easier than that, but that might not be so easy for headphones. The Utopia doesn't seem terribly more efficient than the Elear (in IF the Utopia and Elear with Utopia pads are almost exactly the same efficiency) and while the Utopia driver is much more sensitive than the HD800 driver, it's probably not any more efficient.

    The HD800 also has a much larger driver and most likely stronger magnet than the HD600. But yes, I also think it's lighter.

    What I really meant is that while mass matters, it is still only one of those parameters to optimize. I don't think hunting the lowest moving mass is the ultimate target, nor is the highest magnet strength. I think for a good driver you have to carefully balance everything. Otherwise the HE1000 would be the greatest planar ever, or the T1 or TH900 would be the greatest dynamic drivers ever.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
  8. Lurker

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    Um I may have missworded something.
    6.5+2=8.5
    8.5<10
    In other words the mass of the two diaphragms would be "identical" as aluminium is likely heavier than lcp. So to balance them out the overall thickness of the coated membrane has to be lower.

    The reason I think coating the thing is a good idea is because you can combine two sought after properties without having to use expensive (to manufacture) beryllium.

    You can get high inner dampening from the lcp and higher regidity and sound velocity from the aluminium.

    I also dont see a problem with uniformity.
    The coating isnt applied once the lcp has its proper geometry, instead you'd do so when the lcp is still in its plane form. Then when the coating is applied you stamp it.

    I dont get the "solidity" argument. Regarding your chassis example I could likely make a chassis that weighs less than one made out of pure al by using plastic with al ribs running through it. Of course while maintaining reasonable strengh.

    Id be suprised if the HD 800 didnt use a compound material for its membrane. I honestly dont know.
    What i do know however is that in a Senn factory tour video a worker treats the diaphragm with a brush, likely to apply a coating.

    @Serious The 800s diaphragm surface isnt that much larger than the 600s.
    The diameter is larger for sure however with the 800 you have to subtract the surface taken up by the inner hole.

    Is this off topic yet?
     
  9. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    This is all rapidly killing my enthusiasm for the loaner cycle on these things.
     
  10. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

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    I think the HD800 diaphragm is a compound material. Rin Choi had some info
    Say it's a perfect circle:
    ((56mm)^2-(16mm)^2)*pi = (98.5 - 8) cm² = 90.5 cm²
    (40mm)^2*pi = 50 cm²

    ... If I'm not wrong.



    Edit: Lol, of course I did it wrong. You know you'er tired when you fail at basic math. But I do think the HD600 driver is 40mm, so that makes 12.57 cm² vs 22.61 cm².
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2017
  11. Lurker

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    Almost a square meter cant be right.
    Kreisfläche: radius^2 not diameter^2

    800: ~22,6 cm^2
    600: ~14 cm^2

    Sony dwarfs everything with 38,5 cm^2, almost doubbling the 800. Supprised the Sony doesnt die from Eigenmodes. Those engineers know what they're doing...

    ...And this is how you waste your time. I think I've polluted this thread enough.
     
  12. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    What I would like to know how the measurements would change if I jerked off and coated a thin layer of sperm on the diaphragm. And what the differences would be between 200,000 and 800,000 sperm. How the thickness and mass of the resultant diaphragm would be calculated, etc.
     
  13. TRex

    TRex Almost "Made"

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    @Marvey What a revolution! I'd volunteer as the first loaner. Could also be the next thing for cables. SPC: Sperm Plated Cum.

    [​IMG]

    I would put $5 that the Gaurav factor will be astronomically intoxicating.
     
  14. Bill-P

    Bill-P Level 42 Mad Wizard

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    Hahahaha. I guess one layer of stickiness will definitely "stiffen" the diaphragm up and add many other qualities. :p

    Maybe it'll even make them more orgasmic!!
     
  15. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    Z1R is sure gonna be a different headphone after the meet, as each person adds their own self to it.
     
  16. Jozurr

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    What do you use for EDM?
     
  17. beowulf

    beowulf Guest

    Ah, measurements. Always useful. I'll be sure to ponder on them while listening to the best closed cans the market has seen in the last decade.

    And revisit the topic in a couple of decades - the real Sony classics never have it easy at takeoff.
    Almost five months with these babies now, kept getting better. It's 1990 all over again, but in the right way.
    :punk:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 17, 2017
  18. WNovizar

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    XB1K
     
  19. Vtory

    Vtory Audiophile™

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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Just found z1r bass distortion is somewhat similar with dharma, in that D3 is strangely larger than D2.
    In the dharma thread, people thought paper was used. z1r used lcp(al-coated). Hmm.. interesting.

    @Marvey , could you confirm similarity in subjective bass perception between these two headphones? (z1/dharma) in terms of clarity.
     
  20. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    The Sony sounds much better to me, but there perceived odd some times there, sometimes not there "muffled" characteristic definitely reminds me of the Dharma. Just much less of it with the Z1R. The Z1R D2 harmonic is actually quite good. Most music doesn't have much content below 50Hz. If you look from 60Hz to 200Hz, the Z1R's D2 performance is good, but the high D3 is just weird. The Dharma also has high D4.

    Going forward, I should probably squeeze the Y-axis on the distortion visualization to make differences more apparent.
     

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