The HD800 & HD800S thread

Discussion in 'Headphones' started by sorrodje, Oct 11, 2015.

  1. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    Wrong thread, .. actually wrong forum altogether for such nonsense.
    Here HD800 users agree that good amplification and source are significant to make use of their potential.
     
  2. Joe Bloggs

    Joe Bloggs Acquaintance

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    Perhaps my initial wording was too harsh, but without proper qualification of what "good" stands for completely independent of any money considerations (be it "a lot of money" or "very little money"), you would really be none the wiser than Illya.

    Put another way: name one *technical* reason why the HD800 should be considered hard to drive (independent of its $$$ or flagship status), and one *technical* (not $$$) reason why the E17K should be considered inadequate for it.
     
  3. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    I could write 3 A4 worth of considerations why, but obviously I couldn't be bothered to.
    Look around this place, peek back at Changstar. These things have been discussed at length and thoroughly.
    Sufficient power for loudness is only one technical parameter among thousands that matters. Even many computer soundcards power HD800 to high enough SPL.
    The FiiO pretty much only has that one parameter.

    More importantly you don't even need to try to understand why various things matter, simply listen to various well regarded rigs.
    To me (and most people here) HD800 through proper totl chain matters so much that EQ-s, head related transfer function DSP-s etc are next to insignificant in the whole picture. Actually at some point where one starts to realise HD800's true potential EQ-s and other digital crap start to hinder it's low level dynamics performance.

    There is nothing wrong to be happy with iPhone powering HD800. You are actually blessed with ignorance if that is the case.

    The original post in this thread. Have you somehow missed that?
     
  4. beemerphile

    beemerphile Friend

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    I think most of the responses to Illya (considering only the subset that provided audio advice) were to abandon the strategy of shopping in "price points appropriate for a TOTL phone" and to look at the performance instead. Illya finally took the advice and purchased the Modi Multibit and Vali2. That is pretty much budget stuff - not costing much more than an official set of Sennheiser balanced cables. Few people get to a happy place with the HD800 without either modding or EQ (or both). The next step if the result is not pleasing would be to hold the hardware chain constant and work with the phones. Trying to make the HD800 "work" by throwing thousands of dollars at different TOTL amps / DAC's / cables / quantum stickers is an exercise in futility. If that is what it takes, one is starting from the wrong set of headphones.

    A stock HD800 fed by a Yggdrasil into a Cavalli Liquid Gold is going to sound worse to the average person than a well modded (or EQ/ed) HD800 through the Modi Multibit / Vali2. For whatever fur-picking went on in the process, Illya has been given (and has taken) decent advice. The net of that advice seems to me to be pretty much in line with your own.
     
  5. rainer.skill

    rainer.skill New

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    I disagree. Amps / Dacs are overrated, no matter if HD800 or any other hp.

    HD800 with EQ out of mobo or iphone will sound better than HD800 without EQ out of superduperdacampxyz highend rig.
     
  6. Joe Bloggs

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    You couldn't name *one* technical consideration for each category on your own?

    My turn then.

    The only sense in which the HD800 can be said to be hard to drive is its high overall impedance. This is more than offset by its high efficiency. A high impedance, high efficiency load only requires adequate voltage swing from an "amp" and little in the way of current supply to back it up, to the extent that many people in China believe it sounds better out of some DAP's line out than the actual headphone out. Now the line out can't actually be technically better for the HD800, but such a subjective belief can only be held if the line out drives the HD800 near-as-danged well as an actual amp, i.e. you hardly need an amp for the HD800 at all!

    It's worth noting that the impedance curve of the HD800 puts the lie to claims that poor amping can produce "muddy bass"--its impedance peaks at the midbass region, which means that this band of frequencies are the most well damped by any given amp! OTOH, it also means that an amp with high output impedance can elevate the response of these frequencies unintentionally--but that's not a problem that the E17K has.

    The FiiO E17K has 3 gain settings, I didn't even have to push past the middle gain level to "power" the HD800. I.e. the little amp had voltage swing to spare, never mind current supply. Note that the voltage swing was the potential sore point and the E17K had no problems with it.

    The E17K demonstrably had little in the way of distortion at that level of voltage and current supply; I should know, I was formerly employed by FiiO (but also fired by FiiO in the end, so I don't really have a horse in this race). Granted, the sight of the huge HD800 plugged into the tiny E17K via a step-down adapter was a bit unsightly even for me, but the sound I heard when they were properly tuned in (not my own pair of HD800, so all mods were in software) dispelled all doubts.

    There's nothing in any DAC or amp that can cure an improper frequency response curve. EQs are designed explicitly for this very purpose. I have no business with someone who calls EQ "digital crap".
     
  7. Joe Bloggs

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    Ah well, forgive me for jumping into the debate late then. From my late perspective it looked like the discussion just started and continued on the wrong foot, with the central issue of "amp synergy" being left unchallenged, paving the way for future mishap for this financially limited headphone enthusiast no matter which amp he happened to be persuaded to choose *this* time.
     
  8. beemerphile

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    Well, a future mishap is always possible. It is never too late to run completely off the road, but the urgent task of talking Illya back from the edge of the Cavalli LAu cliff was accomplished. I thought the central mistake of process to be more in trying to match TOTL price points with the HD800 than it was in amp / HP synergy. You are right that "amp synergy" wasn't really addressed, but it is covered in minutia in the referenced "best amps" thread.

    But yeah, the discussion never recovered from its "wrong foot" start. It should have taken place in the "best amps for HD800" thread after, gulp, actually READING it first. That would have required some time and effort to be invested by Illya who seemed to think it was more important to spend the tax refund before the ink on the check was completely dry. Purchase decisions made in such haste, audio or otherwise, usually end up with regret. With the Modi Multibit/Vali2 combo there isn't much to regret after resale. Imagine buying a Cavalli LAu and not liking how the whole deal sounded, and then thinking that it must be the wrong amp for the phones. Ouch!

    Now Illya can hook up the wires and spend some time getting to know the HD800. Lots of modding and EQ'ing resources exist including your own. The technical merits of the HD800 are sufficient to make the process worthwhile. I am new to the HD800 but after a couple of mods I am really coming to like them. They don't yet win over my modded HE-6's on a speaker amp, but they are fine business.
     
  9. FallingObjects

    FallingObjects Pay It Forward

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    Props to @Joe Bloggs for doing things correctly and coming in with genuine, specific critique and a willingness to be proved incorrect.
     
  10. Warrior

    Warrior RIP 2021

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    @Joe Bloggs is an asset to our community. He's helped countless people, myself included.
     
  11. Joe Bloggs

    Joe Bloggs Acquaintance

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    @Warrior Warrior1975 on head-fi? The basshead preferences match |\/| Lol at your sig here! :punk:
     
  12. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    This is no place for a EE-s pissing contest. There is Hydrogen audio or DIYA for that. If you do care, you can PM me, I will share 'technicalities'.
    Have you actually heard any of the SBAF approved top rigs for HD800?
    If not, explaining technicalities behind it is pointless.

    Some people don't care for what HD800 can do with totl rigs, that is fine, but at the same time validity of such sound is not open to discussion.
    Some simply don't hear the difference, that's ok too. Not everyone is created equal. People have different priorities in sound, eg. @Warrior loves bass, I get why he thinks HD800 is only usable with EQ, but then there are better hp-s for bassheads.
    I love unhindered dynamic range, microdynamics and fleshed out soundstage. EQ takes some of it away, and portable or solid state electronics won't cut it at all.
     
  13. Warrior

    Warrior RIP 2021

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    Yes sir, the one and the same!!

    Welcome to SBAF BTW bro, glad to see you here.

    @Priidik You are correct indeed... No way in hell I could enjoy the HD800s without eq, and there are better basshead headphones for sure, but once equed, I have to admit, they do indeed sound very special. Much different than my Th900s. Th900s have more bass, but the HD800s do everything else better.
     
  14. Joe Bloggs

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    @Priidik I'm not sure why you seem to hold EE considerations (you know, the kinds of reasoning behind those who *built* the things you're listening to stuff with) in contempt, but ok? PM sent.

    It certainly isn't open to discussion on the main head-fi forums, I thought things might be different here at SBAF. Mmph maybe I'm wrong~ :Violin:
     
  15. Warrior

    Warrior RIP 2021

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    No, you aren't wrong, at least IMHO. That's one of the things I love about SBAF, the brutal honesty. I've been talked out of over buying a few times. Schiit yggdrasil comes to mind, I ended up buying the Modi MB instead. The curiosity is still driving me mad... Probably mad enough to buy one anyway. Lol... But SBAF has managed to at least delay the purchase, that admittedly, I don't need.
     
  16. FallingObjects

    FallingObjects Pay It Forward

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    I was considering saving up for a Bifrost Multibit/Gungnir Multibit (after reading Bifrost Multibit did a few specific things better than the Modi Multibit that fit to my tastes), but now after @Psalmanazar did their thread, I'm looking around for Emotiva DC-1's. Which are slightly cheaper than either of those options.

    This site, if barring absolutely everything else, is great for getting you the best dollar value out of your purchases.
     
  17. Warrior

    Warrior RIP 2021

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    Couldn't agree more. I'm trying to waste my money, and these porkers here won't let me!!! ;)
     
  18. beemerphile

    beemerphile Friend

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    At least you can say "head-fi" over here and not get booted for it. Over there, as you know, you have to call this site "sb af" instead of SBAF to avoid the post ending up vaporized. I'm sure all the people here agree on something, but I don't know what it is.
     
  19. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    Both Emotiva and Schiit have good return policies. Just buy new.
     
  20. FallingObjects

    FallingObjects Pay It Forward

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    Shipping to Canada land directly is expensive, or else I would. Authorized dealers are few and far in-between. Headphonebar used to carry Schiit stuff, and they're still listed as an authorized dealer, but don't appear to have any of their products anymore.
     

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