USB De-fuckifiers: Schiit Wyrd vs. Uptone Regen

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by purr1n, Jan 24, 2016.

  1. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    I'm doing a full listen to the new Ensemble Signal recording of Music For 18 Musicians, which is very detailed and well recorded. It's a piece I've heard hundreds of times, although this particular recording only about ten times. Once it's done I'm going to remove the regen and do another full listen and see which I prefer. As HitmanFluffy said, the Geek Out may not benefit much from it. This is why the loaner programs are awesome.
     
  2. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    Okay, I've now done some A/Bing and I've found that the regen is having an effect. In particular, it has increased the separation between the instruments, which is making each element come across more clearly. As @purrin said in an earlier post, it's not adding plankton, but rather making it easier to pinpoint individual instruments and sounds.

    However, in the case of my Amperex, it comes at the cost of the depth of the sound. Without the regen, I get this wonderful 3D sense of being surrounded by the instruments in a 360 degree space. There's more airiness to it. With the regen, the soundstage is still wide, but it's more of a 2D presentation, like the players are lined up next to each other.

    I'm not entirely sure which presentation I prefer. I love the feeling of being enveloped and surrounded by the music. The holographic aspects of my Amperex tube are astounding. At the same time, I really enjoy hearing each instrument as clearly as possible and easily picking up each element of the music distinctly.

    I'll have to try it with a Siemens or Mullard tube, those are less holographic so may have less of a trade off.
     
  3. Olor1n

    Olor1n Friend

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    My chain is MBP with Audirvana+ > REGEN (Amber) > NAD M51 > Valhalla 2 > HD650.

    On my system, the Amperex A-frames stifle the space between elements that the REGEN accentuates. It's a less holographic presentation compared to Amperex Bugle Boys. The A-frames are fun to listen to with its dense mids but bass is a tad loose compared to the Bugles. The Bugles are also more transparent to my ears.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2016
  4. sphinxvc

    sphinxvc Gear Master (retired)

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    So I wonder how these de-fuckifiers compare to the old favorites, OR5, Audiophilleos, Hiface...
     
  5. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    Something like the OR5 is probably better...but then you have to remember you can defuckify the USB signal into the OR5 or other similar USB->SPDIF converters. ;)
     
  6. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    I've got an incredible vinyl rip of the Erasure album Chorus, tons of detail and textures and a very lively sound. A/B'ing with the Regen confirmed my earlier findings: Better separation of instruments at the expense of some of the depth. However, I'm finding that I'm enjoying the sound with the Regen on the whole more than without, so I ordered one for myself. I think it improves my chain overall.
     
  7. Olor1n

    Olor1n Friend

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    It's odd that you're hearing better separation of instruments but find the depth compromised with the REGEN. To me, this space between instruments shapes the soundstage around my head into a circular one, rather than the oblong shape I normally perceive without the REGEN. This oblong shape means that there is less space behind the vocals, it's somewhat smothered by other elements and is less distinct, and the overall presentation in front is flatter.

    I rolled my Amperex A-frames for a few nights to get a sense of this "holographic" character you mention. Not hearing it. Again, I find the A-frames lacking in transparency, compared to my Amperex Bugle Boys, or even the stock Valhalla 2 tubes. :eek:

    Sure, you're running a Vali 2 and I've got the Valhalla 2 in the chain, but it's bizarre that you find the REGEN flattens the depth presented by your tube, and inversely, I find these tubes congested and flattens the depth the REGEN adds to the presentation. Maybe my orange label A-frames are duds, but I've owned these tubes before and am very familiar with how they sound.
     
  8. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    Yeah, I'm not sure what the discrepancy is either. It's not a huge difference, just a subtle one, but that's how I'm perceiving it.
     
  9. Original Ken

    Original Ken Friend

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    Remember that you can artificially create some of the spatial effects, as well as instrumental prominence.

    Both purrin and I have verified that converting a PCM file to DSD will make the sound "better" in subtle ways. But all that can be happening in that case is to add subtle distortion (think of the improved "clarity" that you can sometimes get by artificially boosting treble or by artificially boosting color saturation on a TV).

    I'm not claiming that is occurring here, but I just wanted to caution people to not assume that "better" sound means that anything has been improved.
     
  10. Olor1n

    Olor1n Friend

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    I've stated before that I was skeptical of the REGEN and would have gladly sold it to recoup funds. However the improvements that I'm hearing are not subtle.

    Your public service announcement is well intentioned, but take out your disclaimer and it's that all familiar objectivist mantra that paints broad strokes and presents absolutes. A cautionary note attached to defuckifiers, but also to tubes, amps, dacs - anything other than components that measure "perfectly".

    f**k that. Like Marv stated, I too just want to listen to shit (ie music, not rubbish components) and be engaged by what I'm listening to. If something is added to my chain and it goes against expectation, and after extended use, there is no compelling reason to revert back - then that is "better".
     
  11. Original Ken

    Original Ken Friend

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    Yes, but if all you want is better, then you should spend your time exploring the various DSP plugins (such as for VST) for music players. For example, there are plenty that will expand the soundstage however much you want.

    In my case, I only look to faithfully reproduce the recording.

    I realize that standard is dying out, partially because fewer and fewer people have actually heard an instrument in real life, and partially because music is moving to electronic instruments like Ableton, that never existed in real life (making it harder to define what is faithful reproduction).
     
  12. Olor1n

    Olor1n Friend

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    Don't think DSP can achieve the same improvements I'm hearing across the board. The REGEN doesn't present a "Dolby Headphone" like quality. This space between instruments is only a part of it. The cumulative effect of better micro-detail retrieval, micro and macro dynamics, a smoother top end and increased weight in the lower registers - all these things add up to a more cohesive and convincing presentation. There's a lack of finesse when turning on DSP and dialling parameters in. The emulation is blatant and is like an extra layer detracting from the music.
     
  13. jexby

    jexby Posole Prince

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    being satisfied with USB via Regen Amber direct into my Yggdrasil. am late to the game in researching the Mutec MC-3+USB as a potential converter to AES/EBU feeding Yggdrasil instead.
    your combo use of Regen into Mutec begs the questions:
    why not just USB to Mutec --> AES/EBU into Yggdrasil?
    was Mutec without Regen not much better than USB --> Regen --> Yggdrasil directly?

    based on reading that the Mutec is a "master re-clocker" why would it not be able to re-clock + clean up a USB signal very well by itself, without Regen also "helping" this same functionality?
    for $1000+ I'd sure hope the Mutec doesn't require the help of a $170 Regen.....
     
  14. Madaboutaudio

    Madaboutaudio Friend

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  15. fishski13

    fishski13 Friend

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    OK, chain as follows: Laptop/Ubuntu/Deadbeef-ALSA/Gungnir DS/Klone/HD600.

    My Wyrd was sent in for repair and i didn’t have it available for comparison to the Regen. I do have a Doodlebug though, and it’s sonically identical to the Wyrd in my chain. In my experience, these de-fuckifiers do make a difference, for better or worse.

    With the stepped attenuator unchanged, the Regen was a little leaner and cleaner, but sounding a little louder with more emphasis in the upper-mids/lower-treble. Too much emphasis for my tastes. When i turned down the volume to where the upper-mids/lower-treble became tolerable, I lost bass and dynamics. It does have superior soundstaging and instrument separation though. Maybe a little more detailed with a blacker background.

    I had a Gungnir MB here for 3 weeks, side by side with the DS species. I took a pass on the MB. While it did many things better than the DS, it was genre/recording dependent, and i actually preferred the DS about 50.001% of the time. I do think the Regen + MB would make for a superior pairing than to the DS + Wyrd/Doodlebug though, fixing some of the bland, warm niggles I had with the MB. I’m not biting though. I’m really happy with my rig.
     
  16. Skyline

    Skyline Double-blindly done with this hobby

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    Hey all,

    I've got the Wyrd and Regen loaner at home right now. Agree with purrin's overall comparison to some extent, but my listening time has been short.

    One thing I did notice is that the impact of both of these devices is very track specific. Some of the time I hear nothing, and other times I hear some fairly stark differences.

    Do any of you have particular tracks that you really think highlight the changes that these devices are causing? I'd like to do some more focused comparisons...
     
  17. Wfojas

    Wfojas Friend

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    Hey,
    Sorry for being late at this. I had the Regen and Wyrd before Skyline. And I had a Regen before this. I was running it through a PC -> USB-> ifi iDSD Micro -> SPDIF Coax -> Gungnir Multibit and PC->USB->Gungnir Multibit, and I listened on a few tracks that differed in character.

    Also, sorry for the long post. Summary is the Regen might work for you, if your system isn't thin to begin with. The detaill below is just dross.

    Off the bat, I tried the Wyrd in between USB to ifi and also just between PC and Gungnir Multibit. I know I couldn't blind test this as I couldn't really hear that much difference, much hard as I tried. So that got knocked out. I can double blind test the two USB cables I use (i have reliably gotten 100% on over 10 trials) so I'm not that deaf.

    Then I tried two Regens daisy chained on speakers as follows:
    PC -> Regen->Regen->ifi IDSD MIcro -> SPDIF Coax-> Gungnir Multibit ->Tubed Preamp->SS power amp-> large speakers.

    With the following tunes which I happen to have been using to eval stuff lately.

    A Case of You - Joni Mitchell (Audio Fidelty release CD rip, and HD tracks)
    Baker Street - Gerry Rafferty (Tidal)
    Hotel California - Eagles , Hell Freezes Over (Cd rip)
    I'm Old Fashioned - Brad Mehldau - (10 Years Solo CD rip)
    Tin Pan Alley - Stevie Ray Vaughn (HD Tracks)
    Stolen Moments - Oliver Nelson (HD Tracks)
    Just a Little Loving - Shelby Lynne (HD Tracks)

    Summary.
    The Regen in this setup tends to reduce microdynamics, and brings up detail. With one Regen you hear more of the other instruments and with two they sound much closer in volume. The problem is it also flattens the sound, so you dont get the depth (or "bloom") you associate with instruments, the subtle changes that a good setup vs AM radio lets you hear. People who are very sensitive swear that vinyl gives them this, and swore off digital for life. So with Tin Pan Alley, Just a Little Loving, A Case of You, which have minimal backing, you won't see that much of an effect, and the sound seems smoother.

    With two regens, you have the bass lines audible, but leached of any timbre, the voices dryer.
    But this also makes the sound glassier. A Case of You has Joni Mitchell switching from her soprano to falsetto, but the notes sound much more nasal, and thin.
    The same effect happens with piano. I'm Old Fashioned is brilliantly played but unlistenable. I had to stop listening in the middle of the tune as it sounded so glassy, with the notes, I had to make sure nothing was broken. Its actually still pretty bad USB only, but it was so thin with 2 regens, waterboarding would have been more bearable. You hear hard notes, without the associated subtle details that draws you in. 80s recorded arena rock on this setup will kill you, in a fatal way.

    When did one Regen work for me? When you had tunes that had a lot of things going on. Stolen Moments, stuff from Queen, classical, even Hotel CA sounded okay. In every instance though the USB->SPDIF-> Gungnir Multibit beat it in MY SETUP. Music is played with notes that are not exactly in time, and in volumes that vary all the time, unless it was strictly with synths and drum machines, and the Regen deletes some of that, SPDIF lets that out.

    The Regen's sound is not better or worst, just different. If you want a soundstage, depth, well formed image experience, look elsewhere. If your setup lacks detail, this might help in some tunes, but beware the loss of the upper mids and dynamics.

    In contrast, I put in the Berkeley Audio Alpha USB a few days after I forwarded the Wyrd and Regen. And nothing now sounds bad, even the Smiths.
     
  18. bixby

    bixby Friend

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    Can someone help me understand this chain? Is this just to get data from a computer to a dac? Or is there more to it like network drives, endpoints and so on?

    PC WIN10 iCore7 Foobar>PPA V2 (iPower 5VDC) PCIe /USB card>Forza Twin Split Copper>iPurifier2>ICRON/Startech 1GB LAN USB extender (LEX)>BJC CAT6a 625Mhz UTP Ethernet cable>REX (1-Jitterbug in an open port)>LH Labs 2G split (data leg only)>W4S Recovery (LPS - see power chain)>Curious 200mm USB link>F-1
     
  19. jexby

    jexby Posole Prince

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    ha!
    are you stalking rb2013 over at HF?
    :p
    just ran into that thread and stopped after 2 pages, seemed everyone was trying to "overly complicate" their USB chain to gain mohr street cred.
     
  20. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    WTH? Someone needs to get out more or get some. This is the audiophile equivalent of kids ricing up their Hondas. With expensive parts that don't really make their cars go faster.
     

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