Wet shaving!

Discussion in 'Geek Cave: Computers, Tablets, HT, Phones, Games' started by FlySweep, Dec 27, 2016.

  1. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    You are correct. For Personnas, this is what I ended up getting:

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0077LAJT2?th=1

    I trust the brand because my Trac II blades are Personna, and they shave like a boss.

    I also get the feeling that all of the above should do a great job. Still, I'm a little skeptical about the mythical awesomeness of Feather blades. I mean, I'm sure they are great, but come on.

    The modified GD 208 is great, but there are things in my particular GD 208 that are not easily solved. For example, the tang of the blade is not the same thickness through out. This means that as I open the blade, the tang stresses the scales and opens them up. This is fine for cheap flexible plastic scales. But not for more solid or wood scales which will likely crack eventually. In order to make this blade shave, a lot of steel was removed. The GD is supposed to the 6/8", and after the mods, it seems more like 5/8". The bade was a bit scratched as well and it's even heavier than the Dovo. It's good hard carbon steel, but to the naked eye it looks like an envelope opener. It's flat out deceiving unless you know blades.

    I agree 100% with you that a $35 blade that actually works is the way to go if one wants to practice. At least the modded GD 208 will not discourage folks as readily as a POS shavette. But one does indeed get what one paid for. The Dovo, even the entry level one, is an awesome blade.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2017
  2. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    BTW, brief and interesting article by Mantic59 regarding the Weishi clones found in most convenience stores. Comparison and commentary worth the read IMO:

    http://sharpologist.com/2015/06/send-clones.html

    (mine is the Van Der Hagen)

    LOL! My read on it is that they pretty much perform roughly the same (proly cuz they are clones with in some tolerance)

    Another interesting article discussing my el-cheapo Tweezerman's brush (and replacements since it seems discontinued):

    http://sharpologist.com/2015/05/escali-brush-try-instead.html
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2017
  3. Stapsy

    Stapsy Friend

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    I believe the shavette's were originally made for cleaning up haircuts as opposed to shaving. The Feather artist club shavettes look interesting but they are awfully expensive. I think the shavettes will always have issues with rigidity. I have been cutting my own hair and using a razor blade to clean up the edges. I can definitely see how a shavette or a straight would work well for those purposes.
     
  4. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    @Stapsy I think you are right about the shavette original application. This is what I bought quite a few years ago to learn how to shave with a straight (or straight like) razor:

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0016K9TMS/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o09_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    $17 buys you a cheap shavette with 300 Derby blades. I got so pissed at it, that I put the whole thing into the garbage can. I did learn to use a straight with it. But I almost always got the mother of all irritations and a horrid shave with it. Occasionally I would sort of succeed with it. Until I slightly sliced my mustache area with it. It healed perfectly though, probably because the cut was very fine. But again, I got majorly pissed at it.

    The blade was indeed unstable in it, and it protruded way too much out of the holding mechanism. The weight was too light, which made blade control a bit difficult. The corners of the blade always scratched my face. It seems to me a classic DE blade (even half of it) was not really designed to go into these mechanisms. A Feather shavette seems to have blades specifically designed for it. And in case you are a barber, I don't think you can do better than a Feather kit because not everyone wants to shave with a straight that has been used on shit loads of random faces. I don't mind if it's disinfected and used the old fashion way. But people whine and regulations may follow. Who knows. But like you said, the Feathers seem like relatively expensive disposable blade solutions, and for home use, might as well go for a real straight.

    For personal use, if a shavette is a must (because of concerns about sharpening a blade), I would definitively steer people clear from a classic cheap shavette and maybe say to give the Feather kit a try. But otherwise, a regular Dovo straight is what I would recommend (or a GD 208 that was been professionally sharpen and made ready for regular use given the price). It's not too hard to sharpen. This is a good cook book to do so:

    http://straightrazorplace.com/srpwiki/index.php/Pyramid_honing_guide

    It works and it's sweet and simple. It even works with my POS $5 Chinese stone.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2017
  5. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    LOL! Could be that I was learning too (regarding my dislike for that shavette).

    Now here are the differences between a GD 208 and a Dovo:

    Box (not a big deal, but I like the Dovo case better)

    IMG_5386_small.JPG

    Side by side closed (Not a big deal, but I like all black. Already the spine in the GD 208 looks shitty )

    IMG_5387_small.JPG

    Side by side open
    (This one is telling: Note how much shorter the GD 208 blade is from spine to edge - both were supposed to be around the same - and the removal of the stabilizer in the GD 208. Also note how the spine is much thicker and rounded in the GD 208 which will result in a heavier blade. The spine in the GD 208 had a lot of work done to it so that customer honing was possible, and is obviously originally uneven. The Dovo brand is laser etched I think. The GD 208 had a POS stamp that I removed.)

    IMG_5389_small.JPG
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2017
  6. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    View from the spine

    Note the Dovo tang is ribbed to enhance maneuverability
    IMG_5390_small.JPG

    Note the GD 208 tang is not ribbed (which may not be a big deal)
    IMG_5393_small.JPG

    View from the points

    Note the Dovo point is symmetrical and the scales do not deform as the blade is opened
    IMG_5392_small.JPG

    Note the GD 208 point is not symmetrical and the scales sort of detach from each other in the middle as the blade is opened. This is due to the tang being uneven. Changing scales on this blade with something more rigid is pointless, because opening the blade will likely crack the scales (unless they are somewhat flexible).
    IMG_5394_small.JPG
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2017
  7. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    GD 208 scale flimsiness

    Hold
    IMG_5396_small.JPG

    Now squeeze
    IMG_5395_small.JPG

    The only redeeming value of the GD 208 is that it actually shaves, after some elbow grease with some likey power tools. That's not to be taken lightly though. $35 for a piece of steel that will actually work is not a bad deal IMO.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2017
  8. ultrabike

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    CRAP! WTF!!!

    So I tried to shave with this Dovo blade TWICE. Once while new and then again after trying to sharpen this POS. I got it to pass the hair test just as I did with my GD 208. It's the f'ing shavette experience all over again!

    f**k! I finished the shave with the GD 208 because this POS Dovo will not cut f'ing hair. At f'ing ALL!

    Maybe I got a fake Dovo or something. I did get it from "ShaveUSA" in Amazon for $70. Which while on the low side for a Dovo, is f'ing twice what I paid for my GD 208!

    Sharpening the GD 208 is kool. Sharpening this Dovo is hard because you look at it wrong at it scratches. My best guess is that this Dovo blade has not be properly hardened.

    f**k! Beware my friends. At least I can vouch for the GD 208 in "Shave ready" state from WSP. And I can vouch for it being relatively easy to hone.

    Damit! Sorry about the rant. Maybe I will send the Dovo for professional sharpening, but again the scratches and the hair test seem to indicate that the steel is not hard enough and maybe this is a fake POS.
     
  9. Stapsy

    Stapsy Friend

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    Did the Dovo come shave ready as well? It sounds to me like you never set the bevel of the blade. To do that you will need to work your way up from a much lower grit than you would when you are honing. I would definitely suggest getting the Dovo professionally sharpened. Getting a blade shave ready is much more difficult than honing.

    I wouldn't be surprised if you were able to set a "fake edge" on the Dovo. When you are sharpening you are creating a burr on the edge of the blade. As you move up in grit you are creating a smaller and smaller burr until eventually you remove it during stropping. You probably created a small burr that allowed you to pass the hair test but have problems when shaving.

    Based on the pictures I highly doubt you got a fake. Fakes don't generally have details like jimping on the blade. It is possible you got a dud. I would get someone to sharpen it for you first. They will be able to tell pretty easily if the metal is too soft.
     
  10. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    I did reset the bevel for the blade. Just like I did for the GD 208 which now is fine resting with the spine. I have 1000, 3000 and a 6000 grit stones. All of which can set the bevel. In fact, the 6000 and the 3000 scratched the blade above the bevel, even with almost no pressure applied while honing. My GD 208 did not cratch like this when I set the bevel TWICE. For polishing I use a 12000 grit.

    Getting the blade shave ready is difficult... except I've done it TWICE with the GD 208. This is not the first time I sharpen a razor.

    And I strop 100 to 200 times after honing.

    Interestingly, the Dovo does not go nearly as smooth as the GD 208 on the strop. Not even close.

    I'll send it out. We'll see. To me, the metal in my Dovo is way too soft.

    EDIT: f**k it. I'm not sending it. It's $30 to do so, and that's about as much as I paid for my GD 208. If this was a $300-$500 razor, maybe it makes sense. But I paid $70. I'll just practice honing with it. @Stapsy, if you ever get into straight razor shaving, the GD 208 may look like shit and it maybe all geometrically fucked up. But it f'ing works. Also, proly harder to make a buck making a fake GD 208.

    EDIT 2: BTW, I doubt the Dovo passed the hair test due to burr. I stropped it like a mad man, and it passed the hair test easy after stropping. This is a 6/8" Dovo, and maybe the GD 208 being about 5/8" after sharpening makes the edge more stable. The Dovo is sharp. No question about. I can feel it. But hairs just don't come off with it. The GD 208 just mows hairs like nothing.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2017
  11. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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  12. Stapsy

    Stapsy Friend

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    Hmm, you mentioned honing scratched the blade above the bevel. If I am understanding your description I think the sharpening angle might be off. If it is scratching above the bevel then that means your angle is too shallow and you aren't reaching the edge of the blade. I usually use a sharpie on the bevel and then give it a couple strokes to make sure all the sharpie comes off evenly. If there is still black and the tip, I know I need to use a steeper angle and if there is still black at the top of the bevel then I need to use a shallower angle.

    Your gold dollar already came shave ready, so someone took the time to put a solid edge on it. It is much easier to go back and re-hone on a well sharpened edge than it would be to start from a factory edge.

    Anyway, don't give up on it! I am certain you will be able to get it working.
     
  13. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Scratches are normal to some extent. I know what causes them and it's not a mater of concern AFAIK (other than it doesn't look nice).

    Re-sharpened it again. It's funny because it passes the hair test easily and I can even remove hair from my arm with it effortlessly. Maybe this time around it will work? Dunno. Will try to shave with it later. Already got rid of the stubble today with the GD 208.

    If it doesn't work. Meh. Will use the other stuff I got. No biggie.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2017
  14. Stapsy

    Stapsy Friend

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    @ultrabike It seems weird that you can shave the hair on your arm but not on your face. Perhaps the edge is rolling when you try using it on your face? Maybe also experiment a little with the angle?

    You may also consider getting a jewellers loupe or a magnifier to check your work. I have a 15x loupe I use for aligning the nibs on my fountain pens and an 8x loupe for viewing negatives. You should be able to find an 8x loupe from a photography shop for less than $5. It will give you a good look at the bevel and the edge of the blade. I find it makes a huge difference for me when sharpening knives.
     
  15. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    It seems it looses it's sharpness rather fast:

    Sharpen it. Do the hair test. Awesome. Shave. Goes from good to horrid after a few passes. Double check and do the hair test again. Not good.

    Possibly still a bevel issue. Likely will send out to maggardrazors for honing. If after that, it doesn't work, all bets are off.

    EDIT: BTW, I just talked to Brad Maggard from maggardrazors, and he also feels it may be a bevel issue. That said, I know I set and reset the bevel on the GD 208 and didn't have as many issues. Puzzling. We'll see what Brad makes of it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2017
  16. ultrabike

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    So, was close to ship, but decided to hone the razor instead with my 1000 grit for about 25 min. This time I used tape, which is not always recommended. After a bit of elbow grease with the other stones I got the Dovo to shave somewhat respectably all the way through.

    My reasoning for not sending it had more to do with the challenge than the economics. I already know how to shave and do so for relatively cheap. But hone is another story.

    This was awesome. May need to reset the bevel again fully against the spine. But at least I have a better idea what to do when the blade comes in blunt from the vendor.

    Thanks a lot for the pointers @Stapsy!
     
  17. Stapsy

    Stapsy Friend

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    I am glad that you are making progress with the Dovo. Don't get discouraged if it isn't perfect! 1000 grit is extremely fine for re-profiling a blade so I am not surprised it took you a while to set the bevel.

    I still wouldn't be surprised if the edge improves as you improve your technique and are really able to set a truly flat bevel. When you first start sharpening a blade there is definitely a tendencty to produce a rounded bevel instead of a flat bevel. A round bevel will still cut as long as you sharpen down to the edge. Unfortunately the extra metal at the shoulders of the bevel will limit the cutting prowess (although providing the extra durability that can be desired for tougher cutting tasks). As you continue to hone the blade with good technique you will be able to create a flat bevel and an even sharper edge.

    Much like shaving, the sharpening process is a gradual elimination of abnormalities on the edge of a blade. The most important thing is to spend an adequate amount of time at each step to truly make sure you are ready to move on to the next stone. This will give you maximum sharpness and sharpening efficiency.
     
  18. ultrabike

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    So I honed the razor again w/o tape to establish a bevel against the spine and using 30 min with the 1000 grit as I did when using tape. It got sharp, but not as sharp as with the tape.

    However, I measured the width of the blade now. It is no longer 6/8. Lots of metal was lost. Not to mention that the blade is no longer all that shinny and pretty.

    I also no longer believe in honing the blade w/o tape. Lynn @ straightrazorplace sells the idea of not using tape quite a bit. Also, he and most of the membership, while fairy knowledgeable, seem very anti-GD, and cast a lot of doubt about the quality of the metal and the number of shaves one can get before having to hone again.

    I respect Lynn and his website. But the more I learn the more I take some of these things with a grain of salt.

    1) I understand the issues of honing w/o tape: bevel will depend on the thickness of the tape used. There is some discussion about the benefits or reducing the spine as the razor looses width after honing, but I don't buy that. OTOH the gains are huge if using tape. As in not f'ing up the spine looks and removing shit loads of metal. I would just buy a roll of Gorilla tape and consider it part of my hone.

    2) Expecting the razor to last shit loads of shaves with just occasional strop use is IMO unrealistic, if one is using the straight razor regularly. I can shave about 7 times with a very sharp DE blade made of hard stainless steel, which maybe harder than carbon steel used in regular straight razors (not to be confused with high carbon steel). Then it gets a bit uncomfortable. This is a good post about stainless steel vs carbon steel (and the follow up discussion is also fairy interesting):

    https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/carbon-steel-blades.2644/#post-26611

    A GD IME holds a good edge, and after maybe 7 or less shaves, it may need to hit the 10000 grit (not the 1000 grit) for a few little passes. I expect the same on a Dovo.

    A GD does have geometry problems, but it's a good razor. And owning a Dovo has not convinced me otherwise. While I'm not Mr. Straight Razor Know-It-All, I can say that as an enthusiast, this Dovo/Feather following I'm reading on certain sites, while not entirely unjustified (they are not shit products), is a bit extreme (GD and other cheaper blades are not shit either and far more affordable).

    Anyhow, to each their own. At least I'm learning shit.
     
  19. Stapsy

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    Interesting to read someone say stainless is harder than high carbon steel. While that may be true (although I have never read that before), I didn't see anything about the most important part of determining blade strength and durability, the heat treatment. I have yet to see a stainless steel knife that has a higher rockwell rating than a carbon steel knife. It is possible that there are other factors at play but the rockwell scale seems to be the industry standard in measuring hardness. Since I know you have an engineering and science background it might be interesting to read what some of the big steel manufacturers like Crucible have to say about hardness. They produce a lot of the steel that is used in the custom knife making world.

    It always seemed weird to me that there is almost no discussion on steel specifications used in straight razors when it is among the most important factor in determining the value of other knives.

    I think the big test for the steel in your Dovo is if it will hold an edge longer than the GD. Edge retention will be partially determined by use so I wouldn't be too concerned about what others say. Something as simple as a steeper blade angle or coarser/thicker facial hair would certainly impact the longevity of the edge.

    I am also not sure that safety razor blade to straight razor is a fair comparison. I have a feeling a safety razor blade is able to sacrifice sharpness and durability due to the thinness of the blade and the fact that the rigidity is provided by the razor and not the blade. The low cost also puts less of a requirement on durability.
     
  20. Hayo1991

    Hayo1991 New

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    Nice thread guys, I have always been wet shaving. I'm using an Edwin Jagger DE89 Barley with feather blades, proraso pre-shave cream and shaving gel. Maybe I should try a soap or cream, although I quite like the gel.

    Those straight razors look a bit scary to me.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2017

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