Should SBAF do a cable expose?

Discussion in 'General Audio Discussion' started by Rthomas, Jan 31, 2017.

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  1. rainer.skill

    rainer.skill New

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    Just because you hear something it does not mean there really is something. It could also be your mind playing tricks on you. What if you paint your electronical devices white and then you hear that everything sounds brighter: would you, as an engineer, believe that the colour really is affecting the sound or would you assume that it is highly more likely that your mind is playing tricks on you? Can you also hear the differences between different cables in a blinded test? I mean, you could make a lot of money ... :)
     
  2. jelt2359

    jelt2359 Friend

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    This is one of my pet peeves too. In the speaker world, I have friends who end up spending more on cables than their dac/amp combined. I'm not sure that was always the goal, but then that $500 cable upgrade is cheaper than the $5000 dac/amp/speaker upgrade, and before you know it you've upgraded every cable and spent $5000 anyway. Sometimes the story also ends "well", in that they go for that amp/dac/speaker upgrade all the same. Welcome to the audiophile hobby!

    The converse is also true. Just because you hear nothing doesn't mean there really is nothing. Expectation bias cuts both ways- if you expect there to be nothing there really will be nothing. Next time you do this, ask your friends to randomly change *any* component for you, and not tell you what they did. Dac, amp, cables. Volume match in advance. Then see if you can hear any difference when you no longer have any preconceptions about what component is being changed.
     
  3. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Individuals have varying abilities. There was a meet where @schiit brought a TH-X00, a Modi MB, and a Vali 2. When I heard it, I told Jason: "Something is wrong. Seriously wrong". I went in and checked the JRiver MC settings. Lo and behold, the crossfeed and some strange EQ settings were in place. A few people before me listened to the same rig, and didn't seem to notice anything.

    Finally, I won't argue against people not believing in cables as I don't think the differences are significant, at least for non defective cables and connectors. There's always the probability that small differences exist, but that perceived sonic differences due to mood exceed those small differences.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2017
  4. thegunner100

    thegunner100 Hentai Master Chief

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    Well it also has to do with how familiar you are with the recording and gear being used. If you've never heard a recording before, how would you know if it sounded "wrong"?
     
  5. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Might be fun to set up a blind test though. What I wouldn't want is a sloppy test designed to make sure people cannot hear the differences. The subjects should be completely familiar with the gear including the cables. Practice sessions should also be allowed.
     
  6. rainer.skill

    rainer.skill New

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    imo: In the speaker world, before upgrading any other part (dac/amp/cables) than the speakers, one should at first upgrade the room until it reaches an almost perfect level. Compared to the hp world, upgrading the room is like performing physical mods or changing pads, what has much more effect than changing amps/dacs or cables.

    jelt2359, you are right. In addition, I admit that I don't have the same experience as some other here and maybe I also don't have the best ears. There might be differences that I can't hear but others can. Also there are measureable differences that probably nobody can hear because they are below the auditory threshold. But if one hears differences and then says differences exist, just because he hears them, even though he knows, as an engnineer, there shouldn't be (audible) differences, then he should be critical and first do a blind test. But you could also criticize a blind test as not being the suitible approach for that problem, because the testing conditions might affect your hearing. As a result, it is kind of a dilemma.
     
  7. Kattefjaes

    Kattefjaes Mostly Harmless

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    Wow, so before you upgrade your $100 Saber DAC or student hangover POS integrated amp with one dodgy channel, you must completely remodel your room, spending more than the cost of your entire system, "until it reaches an almost perfect level"? Good to know.
     
  8. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    A few cheap DIY or store bought panels don't hurt. Some furniture rearranging. Speaker placement to walls. Toe-in or toe-out. Not expensive really. The last few items are free.
     
  9. rainer.skill

    rainer.skill New

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    Yes, that's exactly my opinion. A 100$ dac is by far good enough for a speaker system in a not properly treated room. From my experience, most rooms really (!) suck, if you measure the frequency response at the listening position, there are 20 dB dips and peaks that completely ruin the sound, especially in smaller rooms. So I wouldn't feel well spending more than 100$ (or even 20$) on a dac in such a room.
     
  10. beemerphile

    beemerphile Friend

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    I fail to understand why someone would spend a significant sum of money on something that it takes a panel of experts to unreliably identify as "different".
     
  11. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Heck, people send a lot more for cold air intakes, wings, and blue shock tower bars on their Honda 4-bangers.
     
  12. beemerphile

    beemerphile Friend

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    It has been said that the difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.
     
  13. rainer.skill

    rainer.skill New

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    Most people (including me) spend money that they earn as an employee for stupid and/or useless stuff instead of investing it. It is still not very smart and I guess buying a cable that is only bling without audible differences is as stupid as spending money on Honda 4 parts.
     
  14. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

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    as much fun as it may be to shit on people with meager (or ELITE-level coulda-boughta-used-car-for-that-money) expendable income who choose to spend their money on anything other than bluejeans cables, i think some biases are pretty apparent ITT. I do find it difficult to broadly assert that anything over $XXX cable-wise is frAudiophile; I also think that the sweet spot lies in DIY. Sure, there's a lot of bullshit floating out there on the sea of bling, but there's also some incredible value for the money without spending kilobucks.

    You wanna hear silver glare? build some $100 silver ICs. You wanna hear sluggish Cu? Grab some Cardas 4x24 and solder up some HP cables. Playing with this stuff is minimal, both in terms of effect, and total expenditure, so what's to lose if you learn something about your personal biases and limits of perception?

    Like marv alluded to: cables should be icing on the cake. why not have just a little fun with that?
     
  15. johnjen

    johnjen Doesn’t want to be here but keeps posting anyways

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    To me cables and other related tweaks can each contribute a subtle change.
    The thing is depending upon a whole bunch of other variables those very same subtle changes can become much more apparent and some some cases can be demonstrably attention getting.

    It does take effort and time and $$$ to tweak, but once you have the amp and dac etc. of your choice, the only other variables are the rest of the system itself such as cables, electrical supply, environment (resonance and vibration control) and of course the main components themselves can be tweaked (PSU's, tubes etc) as well.

    Priorities for which gear and in what order and what one's ability to hear these subtle changes are, will determine the course of action forward.
    There is also the cumulative effect of tweaking the system which I have found can lead to remarkable results.

    IOW if you apply a series of tweaks, each with only marginal improvements, but all are producing 'Better' results, this accumulation over time does result in significant increases in enjoyment of the music itself, let alone the hobby/hands on learning of what and how to fuss with the knobs and dial it all in.
    It's like 10% and 5% and 20% will add together and in ways that can reinforce each other and result in 'Better' no matter how each would define 'Better'.

    Cables are but one part of this whole arena.

    As for saving others from themselves, well unless asked, I have found that aspiration to be a useless endeavor.
    IOW we each will learn those lessons we are looking to explore, and buying the 'wrong' cable can be perhaps more instructive, in the long term, than not.

    Just my 2¢

    JJ
     
  16. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Exactly, I have an aftermarket air filter and a lightweight battery in my car. Oh and a front strut bar too. And I took out 40lbs of rear seat, rear seat belt, tools and spare wheel / tire.
     
  17. drfindley

    drfindley Secretly lives in the Analog Room - Friend

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    Count me among those who believe cables make a difference. I know with my phono cable I heard non-minor difference between a Furutech and a Blue Jeans cable. That said, not all cables and not all systems will changing cables make a significant impact. I think of it like the last thing to worry about when optimizing and tuning a system.

    I think we'd all have a lot more fun talking about what makes a cable great if we they cost 1/100 or 1/1000 what the cable companies sell them for. The prices are outrageous.
     
  18. Thenewerguy009

    Thenewerguy009 Friend

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    That was their cheapest budget cable though. Their high end cables were praised by a lot of people from all I read.
     
  19. Thenewerguy009

    Thenewerguy009 Friend

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    I could lend some of my XLR interconnects I been acquiring if this happens.
     
  20. Madra

    Madra Acquaintance

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    I believe that cables do make a difference, sometimes a significant one.
    This is a recent audio experience that illustrates my point of view.
    A couple of weeks ago, we met at a friend's house to listen to a new pair of speakers he recently acquired. His system consisted of a Macintosh CD/SACD player, a Hegel 360 integrated amp, and Proac D40r speakers. We sat thru 3 or 4 classical music tracks, listening critically. When my friend finally asked for our assessment, I was the first to respond and describe what I heard. For a strange reason, the sound felt like cut in 2 pieces. There was a clear discontinuity between lower and upper frequencies, and each part seemed to operate in a different realm, failing to achieve a coherent whole.
    At that point, my friend mentioned his speaker cables composition. He was using Kimber speaker cables with Cardas jumpers. replacing the jumpers with kimber ones restored the balance and the speakers were able to speak with one voice.
    This was a totally blind call. We were not listening for differences, just critically assessing the overall system's performance. We heard what we heard and that discontinuity disappeared the minute we changed the jumpers.
    If 20 to 30 cm of jumper wire can alter the sound significantly, what about a full cable length?
    I am mostly a speakers guy, so I cannot speak from a Head gear perspective, but it has been my experience that cables unfortunately do make a difference (I have not tested network cables so have no opinion on that matter).
    I say unfortunately because I find cable pricing to be ridiculous. I have an intellectual objection to stratospherically priced wire and would never recommend spending on cables if the system is not well sorted out. Even then, I would only buy used to achieve better value/$.

    just my 2 cents
     
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