Delta-Sigma Alternatives

I'm making a new thread for this @Priidik and @ultrabike. R2R DACs should be better in theory due to the decimation but in practice I find they're really not compared to the modern, multi-bit delta-sigma DACs; they're just different and better at different things. I view many implementations of many of the modern, mass-produced chips be just as good as the Moffat made Schiit Gungnir Multi-bit, Yggdrasil, and the old Theta 3 I have heard.

The Gungnir Multibit and Yggdrasil are correct tonally in volume for the most part. The Gungnir Multibit bass is noticeably "off" as in it "ghosts" (I'm going to use this instead of warmth or bloom) with the Yggdrasil bass less off but still off. This bass offness is instantly perceivable with the attack of kick drums, timpanis, horns and lower string fundamentals like power chord chugs when ABed with a delta-sigma DAC or just playing a LP of the same recording even with the limitations of vinyl. Ride the Lightning's chugging sounds off on Gungnir Multibit/Yggdrasil.

Ultrabike told me this might be crossover distortion at zero crossings creating harmonics in higher frequencies but I think it might be due to math errors in the R2R chips. I don't know but the Modi Multibit, Bifrost Multibit, Theta, Transdac, and all the PCM 1704 DACs are infinitely worse here.

The Yggdrasil has a funny presentation, boosting tape hiss noise floors in certain situations but the separation and detail is noticeably better than Gungnir Multibit but staging is weirder at the same time which might be just something inherent to the chip that the Yggdrasil uses. I can tell instantly something is funny with the Yggdrasil's staging (not separation) even with headphones. It's almost "Sabrey" but not nearly as bad and not tone or timbre. Still the Yggdrasil floors me with the separation in ways the cheaper Schiit multi-bit DACs do not. Those are more: "That's the burrito filter in action" rather than knocking me on my back or making my jaw drop like the Yggdrasil does even with headphones.

For the Schiit DS DACs, the older Modi 2U and Bifrosts have about equal tonality but better bass timbre (no "ghosting") , and much worse treble timbre/detail/texture. Gungnir AK 4399 has worse, "V-shaped classic rock equalization preset" tonality. I don't even want to talk about the AK 4490; AKM's "Velvet Sound" is more "Velvet Shit".

Overall, I don't really feel the Schiit stuff are really better products than a lot of AD1955/Cirrus/Wolfson based stuff despite the amazing burrito filter. Some examples:

Emotiva DC-1
Lynx Hilo (the old Auroras aren't great though)
Bricasti M1
Lavry stuff such as theDA 11 (USB section sucks but Lavry has old Bifrost slightly oversaturated warmth but just better)
Prism DACs (actually slightly boosted bass or something going on)
Well done Wolfson 8471 DACs but the bad ones are kill yourself bad.

I like the Gungnir Multibit and Yggdrasil, which are super bang for buck but the first two beat them there if you want lesser warm up, the pre-amps for powered monitors, ability to drive older 600 ohms input pro gear, and the great ADC in the Hilo (what you're really paying for with that). Sure some of these lack the same amount of low level detail retrieval and "correct" treble timbre but make up for it with more correct bass timbre and blacker backgrounds that can reveal plankton not easily heard on the Schiits.

ESS Sabres have never impressed me at all, even the LH Labs dongles (filtered out high end detail) and the X-Sabre (three ply softness) which are some of the less offensive ones. They all have the one-note bass timbre/texture, oversaturated upper bass/lower mids, and totally fucked high end that requires some sort of major compromise. Sabres are samurai movie, sun and steel DACs like the final duel in Musahi III only by listening to them you're the guy being beaten to death with the oar.

 

R2R is grate but good DS ain't no joke either. In the early 00's on we had plenty of great DS dacs, for me they eventually culminated with the PerfectWave. I loved the Hilo as well. Another one I haven't tried myself was the NAD M51 which gets a lot of praise.

 

So, in your more experienced opinion, the Emotiva DC-1 is a firm improvement over both the Modi Multibit and the GOV2?

Because these things are $700 CAD new, but I see people selling used models in the sub $300 range, which would make them highly competitive with the Modi Multibit and the GOV2 from a price perspective alone.

 

The Modi Multibit is veiled and the GOV 2 is warm and I can hear the high end detail present in the Sabre glare being filtered out to make the DAC more palatable.

Sub $300 maple dollars is an insane price. Just jump on it. If you don't like it, sell it.

 

Herpderp, turns out I was just being dyslexic, but will definitely keep my eye out for it in the future and scour used sites a bit. Thanks!

 

Sounds like you want a supercomboburrito D/S schiit box. Maybe a Gungnir Uber.

 

I have the Prism Lyra and currently the Callia on loan. Both are amazing dacs and make the Modi Multibit sound like mush. The Modi Multibit maybe carries some better shape definition, but sounds further away and almost echo-y. The Lyra has air while the Modi Multibit feels like it's blowing through a straw. Treble presence in the Lyra is sharp without sounding etched. Modi Multibit feels both veiled/flat yet upfront at the same time; it pushes this sense of texture that at first feels awesome sauce, but compared vs the Lyra it's like... Modi Multibit is a worn-in pair of jeans, comfortable and soft because it's a bit fuzzy, and hey jeans that fit right are keepers. If I get a bit of dirty on 'em, hey that just adds to the character. Lyra on the other hand is like wearing slick microfiber, so smooth and clean, maybe it's got a bit of shine to it.

... and now I'm talking about pants. This is a weird hobby.

 

I've read that some people prefer the Dangerous Music Convert-2 to the Yggdrasil. I believe it uses the AD1955 delta-sigma chip. It's pro equipment and therefore designed to go in a rack.

 

The Lyra was really good yet I felt it had a tiny bit of bass boost added to it when I heard it. Certainly crushes lesser DACs like the Modis and Bifrosts though.

 

I wouldn't quite describe it as bass boost... more like a "thicker texture" to me. In my scrawled stream-of-consciousness notes, I wrote down "reverb textures are cleaner". There might be changes too depending if you route the outputs directly or if you send them through the internal mixer bus... but I haven't dug deep enough into that to tell if I'm just talking myself into placebo yet.

 

Probably you're right and the thicker/fatter texture is it; I didn't AB it with anything. When I ABed the Gungnir Multibit, I found the volume of bass was neutral but the "offness" or "bloom" was more of a "ghosting of attack", not inherent bloom like a AK4490 or "inner-warmth" like a Sabre or Wolfson.

 

I've never found Sabres warm, but yes on Wolfsons. If I had to broadly generalize it, Wolfsons have some sort of buzziness to the lows while Sabres have that in the highs. Buzziness being a not quite reverb thingy.

I kinda miss the old PCM270# dacs. Maybe out of nostalgia for my early diy days. They were not particularly well defined, but I never found anything egregiously wrong with them either. It's like a young kid who drew you a picture that's not a masterpiece, but ain't half bad either and you're happy to put it on the fridge. Stuff like Sabres is some art school hipster who's trying to tell you he's the real deal and is trying to sell you his painting of a red square on a blue canvas, meanwhile you're wondering why he can't take your gorram passport photo at the walmart photo booth.

 

Same as Emotiva then. Seems like the AD1955 is fairly popular only in certain circles.

 

Once you've gone with a big rack, it's hard to go back...

 

As an AES source or actually doing digital to analog conversion with the Dangerous Music Concert-2, looping that back into the built-in Analog to digital converter and outputting that digital signal to the Yggdrasil? The second would be psychotic.

Sabres all have this one note bass and over-saturated quality to them before you even hit the upper-mids and treble. I despise them. Wolfsons are just slightly warm when done well.

Pretty sure the AD1955 has a decent sized following. Most SBAFers who have heard them seem to think the Lavry stuff, Bricasti M1, and Emotiva DC-1 are decent to good. Wha ares not very popular are Wolfson chips as they're supposedly harder to implement well and if you mess up, it sounds terrible; eg AGD Wolfsons ugh.

 

I'd really like to hear AMB's take on the Wolfson in his Gamma dacs.

 

Yeah, but compared to the likes of AKM, ESS and Wolfson, AD1955 using DACs are much more rare.

There's a y3 for sale actually...

 

No, just instead of Yggdrasil - I think you misread my post

The Convert-2 could be used as an AES source to Yggdrasil. It has a very well regarded clock circuit (JetPLL), but not sure if it would be an improvement because Yggdrasil would reclock again anyway.

The second idea regarding looping back is indeed psychotic.

 

Great recommendation! I prefer r2r though.

Btw, how do you think about benchmark dac1? Of course, I never mean usb input (quite poor to my ears). But I had very good impressions when I used via either spdif or aes along with old denon cd transports. Used them with lsr308 (jbl's monitor) and liked the combination quite a lot. Headphone out was also very decent.