The Audio 101 Thread

Discussion in 'General Audio Discussion' started by sphinxvc, Nov 12, 2016.

  1. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    The way I think of it is that the stage in a recording is fixed, the illusion of which is created through a variety of miking and mixing techniques to give a desired presentation. Headstage makes sense to me as certain gear (many orthos and solid-state amps for example) imprint their own constrictions on the stage, and any description of such would be a description of the gear.

    Obviously the term headstage doesn't make much sense for speakers, but IMO their staging abilities should be described in relation to whats in the source (the recording). The best systems will be chameleon-esque and adjust stage according to the recording. If the presentation is "fixed" like the recording is "fixed", then there isn't much room for fidelity, is there? Most headphone systems don't have the capability to do this which is why many people think describing headstage/soundstage with them is a waste of time regardless.
     
  2. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    ^ This. The soundstage inherent in a recording, as mixed by sound engineers on speakers. Biaural recordings made for headphones, all 13 of them in existence, are a special case. This soundstage does not sound right on headphones...

    The Smyth Realiser is a attempt to recreate soundstage (per above) on headphones. Without it, we get headstage.

    Many elements of depth and localization that can be heard with speakers (soundstage) cannot be heard (as well, or are presented differently) with headphones (headstage). How gear presents soundstage may not translate the same way in headstage. Here are some examples:
    1. Many people bitch that Schiit MB DACs don't have "depth". They actually do, and in an amazing way, when used with speakers (soundstage). It's just that the stage is upfront when used with headphones (headstage). Many headphone listeners find upfront staging to be undesirable, considering that many of the soundstage capabilities such as front to back (and even left to right) localization are minimized with headphones. Phil Collins voice floats eight feet in front of me. The backing vocals and rest of the orchestra are far back and enveloping as if I am sitting near the back from a big IMAX theater in "Hand in Hand". This doesn't happen with headphones, regardless of gear, with the exception of using something like the Smyth.
    2. Many headphone listeners love how the AGD Master 7 or some ChiFi Sabre DACs have great "depth" (headstage). However, these DACs tend to suck with used with speakers (soundstage). The staging is deep, but the relative front to back localization sucks ass. All the instruments are on a plane with no depth. However, the weakness is minimized with headphones.
    3. The overly wide and flat stage of the Chord Hugo that people bitch about when using headphones actually translates better in the speaker environment where the speakers are in front of us.
    I cannot assess all aspects soundstage of gear by using headphones or IEMs. However I can assess headstage with speakers if I know how things will translate into the headphone environment.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
  3. Changeling

    Changeling Tube Slut

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    Agreed. I always try to use Miklós Perényi and Andras Schiff's recording of Beethovens sonatas for piano and violoncello made for ECM:
    https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Music-Violoncello-Andras-Schiff/dp/B0002VOX6O

    Not only is the music great, for me it really challenges the system on microdynamics and soundstage.
    I pay attention to the details from around 1.45 in to the third movement of the F-major sonata (Rondo. Allegro Vivace). Listen to Shiff's piano playing, you can hear him doing the most delicate changes in volume and tone.
    Furthermore the complete second movement of the A-major sonata op. 69 (Scherzo. Allegro Molto) always makes me smile on a system that has the capability of painting a detailed picture.

    Finally it doesn't hurt that they've added in Beethovens variations of 'See the conquering hero comes' (WoO 45) as well.
     
  4. BenjaminBore

    BenjaminBore Friend

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    Recently I've been coming to the conclusion that headstage width and depth are faked. Thus far anything I've tried with that presentation comes at the expensive of smaller imaging in the centre. I find I need to increase the volume to potentially unsafe levels to compensate as it's hard to hear the vocals clearly. I've measured the volume to confirm this. It also results in a need to adjust the volume frequently as the volume spikes with anything highly dynamic will jolt your ears something fierce.

    I was always very focused on stage size for film watching. But I've now done a U-turn and am moving toward headphones with a forward vocal presentation, preferably with imaging as large/tall as possible.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
  5. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Totally agree. As @zerodeefex and I like to say, headstage is bullshit. I only cover headstage aspects because some people want to know and do care quite a bit. Personally, I don't care about headstage when it comes to headphones.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
  6. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    In literature, they call it the willing suspension of disbelief. Works, in fact, to some extent is necessary, in audio too. Perhaps more so with headphones than speakers.
     
  7. zonto

    zonto Friend

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    I'm constantly surprised by the depth I hear with Utopia, T3, and Yggdrasil, faked or not. I'll probably move on to another amp eventually though if I keep the Utopia because its narrow stage width coupled with the slightly narrow stage width of the T3 isn't the best match.
     
  8. Audiophile

    Audiophile New

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    Here's another question.What do you mean by musicality?I have heard someone say that Stax L700 is better than SR 009 musically. Does musicality mean dark sound, warm sound, forgiving sound or something entirely different?
     
  9. Audiophile

    Audiophile New

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    Here's another question.What do you mean by musicality?I have heard someone say that Stax L700 is better than SR 009 musically. Does musicality mean dark sound, warm sound, forgiving sound or something entirely different?
     
  10. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    Musicality or "musical" doesn't really mean anything and is a weasel word. It doesn't have any sort of agreed upon definition among most people and its only universal quality is that it is usually used in a positive or complimentary manner. Since there is no associated definition, there is no associated risk with using it to describe any component since you technically can't be proven wrong.

    Some people consider "musical" to mean "of the music" or that the specific component is true to the music (the source). It's funny because people who use "musical" to describe sound that is warm; forgiving (via deliberate omission of detail); pleasantly colored; rolled off and/or compressed; create a paradigm in which components that are considered "analytical" (too accurate) are painted as being the opposite of "musical". So which is it, accurate or musical? It makes no sense. A component that would be true to the music (the source) could only be so if it was also accurate (high-fidelity). It doesn't describe in any useful capacity the performance of a product either subjectively or objectively and its use should be avoided.

    Much of the same can be said of involving/engaging as some people are engaged by veil and fat bass while others like AT-style boosted upper mids and treble. It's still a weasel word but this time used as a subjective response to a component instead of a subjective description of the components performance. If you are going to call something engaging try to expand on what makes it so to you instead of using it as a lazy fallback.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017
  11. Arun Kumar

    Arun Kumar Friend

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    What is grain? How do you identify grain? Is it observable only in treble? Can all components in the chain add grain? If so, which component is most likely to do it?
     
  12. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    In general, a lack of cleanliness and/or rough texture in the upper registers (mid-range and treble). In my experience it's usually something that is identified via feeling or fatigue after prolonged exposure and not always immediately evident, especially not with every recording. For example something like the Valhalla 2 which has a sandy quality to the upper mids and treble may be fine until I play something like grunge or heavy rock which has a lot of energy in the upper mids, tiring my ears out and causing a sensation of strain.

    Outside of that prolonged exposure, you need enough experience with something clean sounding for grain to be immediately identifiable, as it's possible to get used to it otherwise. e.g. switching from using Utopias or a clean ortho for a week back to the HD650 may alert you to the inherent grain of the driver. I do think all components are capable of adding grain to a degree, but it has been most profound in transducers and amplifiers from what I've seen.
     
  13. Arun Kumar

    Arun Kumar Friend

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    Isn't using a bright headphone usually fatigue inducing? I find it a little hard to use my K7xx / HE560 for more than an hour without taking a small break (or eq-ing bits). I don't have the same problem with the 650s. Does brightness exacerbate the grain problem and conversely does warmth make grains go away?
     
  14. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    Bright/dark is a tonality issue, grain is a texture issue. Some AKG phones are both bright & grainy, which will exacerbate the issue on both fronts as you said.

    From the original mid-fi trio of HD650/K7xx/DT800, the HD650 was seen as the least problematic there because of its relative darker tonality (and the driver was much more refined but people didn't appreciate this until headamps in general got better). The HD800 is still brighter, but it's cleaner in those regions for sure.
     
  15. Arun Kumar

    Arun Kumar Friend

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    Can you suggest some albums / songs / youtube videos which will likely expose grain issue? Or is it not as simple as that? I'm trying find a way to tell inherent brightness apart from grain. Would you consider sibilance to be a type of grain?
     
  16. Boops

    Boops Friend

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    This is exactly right and matched my experience:

    I did not understand what was meant by “grain” until I switched back to my 650s after having the Elear on loan. It is something separate from FR or brightness/darkness. It is more to do with clarity, which is a result of lots of factors inherent to the driver as @k4rstar is pointing out, not necessarily to the amp, dac, song, etc. It’s more obvious with Utopias but even the Elear was enough to help make this audible.
     
  17. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    I dunno, it manifests itself differently in different types of music. Just listen to anything with heavy use of power chords and riffs: Nirvana, L7, Black Sabbath. Focus on the guitars at a critical volume and see how quickly you get tired. It can certainly be present in vocals as well.

    Sibilance is again mostly a tonality issue: undue emphasis on high frequencies around 4-8kHz can highlight sibilants such as "shh" sounds already present in the recording. Sibilance + grain (unclean treble) = ear rape.
     
  18. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    1. Planars tend to have less grain than dynamics.
    2. TTs have much less grain than digital.
     
  19. Arun Kumar

    Arun Kumar Friend

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    Are there benefits to upsampling in a computer via players like Audirvana, Hqplayer, JRiver than letting the dac take care of upsampling? Sometimes people claim upsampling in a PC is good that in doing so the $100 dac will effectively sound like $1000 ones. Is there any truth to it? The lack of specifics in such statements is usually not confidence inspiring, but I don't have a $1000 dac, so I can't judge.
     
  20. GoodEnoughGear

    GoodEnoughGear Evil Dr. Shultz‎

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    Sibilance is a bit of a bugbear for me, and after lots of only moderately successful tweaking with good EQ (digital) and some deep thought I'm concluding that it's a more complex phenomenon. A fricative has a relatively wide range of frequencies and the escalation to a whistle/sheen is not something that you can really fix (especially in a finished mix) by rolling off the treble without f'ing other sounds over. It's too spread out. Even a competent de-esser is quite noticeable if you're trying to tame a sibilant recording.

    If you want something sibilant but (IMO) not grainy, try Bruce Hornsby and the Range The Way It Is/On the Western Skyline. Sonarworks sees my Genelec 8030/7050 as about 2-3db rolled off in the treble above 6k or so, but it lights up that hayseed whistle like a flare.
     

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