Massdrop: Search Your Feelings

The optics are not great, honestly. Perhaps with HF and also the way most of the audio world reviews things, it's not inconceivable that SBAF eventually became tainted as well given how much gear is given to select members.

Perhaps it's just in our nature to be skeptical, very skeptical, especially given this is the audio world and everything is "day and night/jaw-dropping/Insta-boner." The whole Tekton debacle awhile back when there are some negatives is I'm sure just a fart compared to how the majority of gear gets "reviewed."

So how could SBAF be different? Well I think the recent ZMF debacle was the catalyst to getting reviews where most SBAF members, older and newer, prefer to see them (very honest) - just be totally upfront with gear, how you got it and if you decided to keep it as your intro. Negatives can still be presented in a gentleman manor without just saying bullshit phrases like "may appeal to some tastes" etc.

 

I propose SBAF reviewers randomly shit on good-sounding cheap tubes available on e-bay, so shed-fi dupes don't clog the market and drive up prices.

 

I'm an actual lawyer and the complaints about Massdrop engaging in predatory behavior are pretty bizarre and seem to reflect a certain degree of naivete about how these sort of negotiations work.

A larger company may be able to exert more bargaining power based on financial implications, but the fact is, the original vendor is also uniquely situated to extract certain concessions from being the licenseholder to begin with.

It seems misguided to assume that all these arrangements are horribly one-sided when any astute business would retain a competent lawyer to protect whatever rights they believe they simply can't give up.

 

I think all of this discussion has been very useful going forward. But at some point, could we continue the discussion of tha amp itself? Not much has been added to the other thread. More pages here than there I think. Now it's being referred to as mediocre. How did we get there? Did anyone who has actually heard it decide it was mediocre? If so I missed it.

 

Yeah sure, in 7-8 months.

 

Patience is virtue. I can wait. @k4rstar , did you order one?

 

Nope, I am personally allergic to Massdrop's business model but patience has never been my strong suite. I'm slumming it with a Valhalla 2 and looking to upgrade to something I won't want to replace in another few months, which seems to mean dropping a few grand but so be it.

The amp looks nice, the design has some potential for tweaking and I am always a proponent of getting tube sound and enlightenment regarding fidelity into the hands of more people. That being said, I've noticed a pattern on this forum following product releases for some time now that I'm not really comfortable with, but have only discussed with others in private.



The above illustration demonstrates the cycle of hype following adoption for any given new product. The greatest example I can think of to overlay with this graph on SBAF was the launch, hyping and subsequent disillusion with the Schiit Jotunheim. If you go back now and read through the original impressions thread for it chronologically, it's actually hilarious just how much its sonic virtues were being extolled while its now well-known deficiencies were completely glossed over by many members.

Reading through the ZDT Jr. thread now is the most I've seen this strong BUY IT NOW mentality since the Jotunheim thread, though there have been many products with similar treatments in between. The issue with Massdrop in this diagram is it shifts "the chasm" as well as the "majority" far to the right due to the lead times associated. This gives the product more time at the "peak" of hype, generating more sales for something based on a very limited and perhaps well-chosen set of impressions, impressions that I view as biased due to having an investment in the product via the form of early access, aiding in the tuning of prototypes and perhaps just wanting to feel special for having the latest toy before everyone else. I personally do not buy the nonchalant act put up by the few who get early access to these products but I admit I may be reading too much into it.

Although I'm pretty confident the ZDT Jr. won't be a piece of shit like I think the Jotunheim is now (who knows though, maybe it just needs to be baked in the Cali sun?), hopefully you can still see what I'm getting at.

 

To me, the recent drop of the ZDT jr did feel like a coordinated effort between MD and those that reviewed it here. I could be wrong, but I believe @Hands announcement and impressions post hit the forum not 5 min. after I received the email from MD.

A well-respected and experienced SBAF staff member announces, and provides listening feedback at the same time as the launch? That's a huge plus to the credibility of the amp and seems like an ideal way to roll-out a new product and build interest.

That said, I don't necessarily care.

I've come to greatly appreciate the reviews, impressions and general knowledge of those involved here, specifically Hands, @Marvey and others. Sure, it may seem that SBAF is shilling MD gear (or Schiit or CA for that matter), but you know...what if these guys genuinely like the product? Why can't they be excited about it?

Additionally...

1. These guys know their shit, and if their feedback aided in development, then the product will have some merit.
   
   
2. They’re transparent. Some better than others, but if you ask, they’ll tell you.
   
   
3. They tell you if they like something, and also if they don’t. They also find merit in products (when deserved) even if it doesn’t suit their “taste”, but may for others.
   
   
4. Once they provide impressions, reviews and/or measurements, they provide support to their statements, and never try to steer anyone a certain direction. They neither set a tone, or attempt to persuade or sell the product. Their ongoing involvement is only to answer questions and supplement their observations.

While I do feel the timing was a bit ill-advised, and could lead to the perception of MD and SBAF being in cahoots, for me it’s of little concern. SBAF is not trying to sell me anything.

I can join the discussion, or not. It’s one thread of many.

 

I don't post much, so I apologize for suddenly posting criticism. However, the line between SBAF and Head-fi has been eroding recently in my experience, specifically in regards to hype. There is a reason people here have rightly mocked hype-fi.

I don't necessarily think this is an issue with the basic content of the site: Its a site for like-minded acquaintances to good friends to bullshit about audio and what not. I'm not saying that is wrong, or we shouldn't be doing that. I take issue with the accidental culture of hype from and faith in impressions on this board. I think a lot of the most important members here would agree that impressions are only so useful, and should be tempered with an appropriate amount of skepticism until you've listened to a piece of gear yourself. That's why the loaner program is some of the best shit in any audio community. There are too many newer members who seem to latch onto the impressions and opinions of prominent members, and that seems to lead to runaway hype and noise.

As K4 pointed out, the Jot is an excellent example. It had some great synergy with certain headphones in the opinion of certain prominent members. Months later we all acknowledge that it also has a lot of flaws in conjunction with its strengths that were hyped early on. Yet, so much noise and hype was created over it, because expectations weren't correctly managed by the people reading those impressions.

Many MD products have gotten a lot of positive coverage here, but I don't think that's an issue unless some undisclosed incentives where passed out, which I highly doubt. If there is a problem, the problem is that we have a shitty culture of unmanaged expectations and hype that drive members to jump on the latest train, whether it be the Jot, Modi Multibit, AF, HP3, or this ZDT jr.

I can't imagine how guys like Hands and Marv must feel when they can't be excited about a damn product without it being treated as professional purchase advice.

 

I understand where some folks are coming from. That being said, I've known personally (IRL) most of the people who where involved in the long process to bring this amp to market, (exception @Hands who I haven't met in person. Hoping to soon) for many years. However it may appear to some of you, they wouldn't coordinate in some conspiratorial way with MD. Not who they are. Yes, this is my opinion. Maybe I'm in on the conspiracy!
Or perhaps, everyone who has heard it wanted to get the word out as quickly as they could so people wouldn't miss the drop, as they feel it's a great value. Simple as that. Then the bitching began about the wait time. Then hype train accusations. Then a general criticism of Massdrop. Now accusations that some people are shilling. So people started bailing because of all this crap. Now statements that the amp really sucks. All this is getting to be insulting to Marv, CEE TEE, Hands, zerodefex and others who are only trying to help you find good sounding gear at a reasonable price instead of the ridiculously expensive shit that gets shoved out there and truly gets hyped. These people spend a lot of time and money out of their own pockets to keep this place running and more time dealing with unnecessary squabbles, trolling and plain childish behavior from too many people. Personally I don’t understand why they put up with it. Thankfully they do. So thanks guys. Sometimes it seems a lot of people take all this for granted, and they shouldn’t. Not directed at any persons in particular. And if you know me at all, I usually don’t post comments like this. Done with this thread.

 

As someone who ordered a Bakoon amp & some keycaps from them years back I see where Massdrop may be drawing bad blood without any intent or ill will on their part. See I bought the Bakoon amp because it was 1/3 off retail, and this was the first time a high-end amp hit their site, the thought was if I didn't like it I wouldn't be out anything. I was part of an 'exclusive' community and got in on a one time drop. Well I didn't like it and I did take a loss selling it and that has made me hesitant to purchase again.

Yes my expectations were unreasonable & nope Massdrop made no statements nor promises which I could say they violated, but if I made an assumption I'll make another and say there are at least a few other people who made the same. Here are a few demographics they may be unintentionally angering:
Those in my shoes or anyone thinking they're getting a one time deal.
The second hand market in general "Well it sold new once for $$$ so no way I'll pay over $$ used!" Basically anyone who bought something new before the drop.
Early adopters who thought the community would stay exclusive and small(all growing sites deal with this core group who feel betrayed by growth.)

Its that much worse with us audio snobs, even if something is good it won't be to everyones' taste and being that the market gets flooded with a drop resale value hits hard. People come in with the expectation of a super deal and leave feeling burnt. It's not Massdrop's fault but its good for their business for them to find a solution to the problem. Its a job for a psychology or marketing type, none of this has been worked out before as MD are working with a new type of business. Just in time buying in bulk you could call it. And when there's not established expectations you either write your own or let your customers' imaginations run wild. That's the heart of the issue, the part hard to put to words, I say. But of course there are a number of other little things some which are clearly 'growing pains syndrome' and the drama that comes with small business.

 

The only reason they do it that way is otherwise we'll get ten different threads started by Randos with all sorts of weird speculation in them.

 

If you've never heard of a press embargo, read up on it. First Google result: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/News_embargo

This is how virtually every single product/service/new anything announcement in every industry works.

SBAF is part of the audiophile press, even if it's just a forum. Companies are aware of the influence this site has and--if it thinks it has something worth sharing--will get key contributors here equipment before it's announced specifically so it can be (p)reviewed immediately alongside the official announcement.

Sending SBAF a piece of gear comes with greater risk than most outlets. While some sites/communities run specifically because companies give them money, this one runs on donations. That means a company is far more likely to get an honest review here, which also means they could be shooting themselves in the foot if your the product sucks. On the other hand, if it's actually good, a positive review from trusted sources here can very well boost sales.

A certain amount of mutual respect is shown when review units are sent. You are much less likely to get poo pictures in a review if you send SBAF something to review, because it took balls to do so and despite claims to the contrary, people like @Marvey and @Hands are not actually assholes.

When we spend SBAF funds on something that turns out to be bad, we're entitled to picture some poop in the review because real money that could have otherwise gone to good gear was spent on a pile of shit instead.

 

Typed out a scalding response to this, but then realized that my name is OJpos.

 

I guess I’m one of the ten. Think I’m somewhere between you and Marv. If you both like the ZDT Jr., and I know what tube amps Marv likes, then the amp will have a good chance at hitting my audio buttons.

 

Caused in no small part by the fact that since July @winders has been spruiking them hard on the Head-fi Lyr thread. It seems I put him on to it. I put the necessary 5670 adapters up for giveaway on the forums here and he claimed them. I'm sorry, everyone.

 

Absolutely. And people can read up on how owners of another site are thought of when they break a press embargo just to put themselves in the limelight and get ahead.

So, impressions and first reviews are going to some out when the manufacturers allow it. To read conspiracy into this is absurd. Why don't Marv & Co post until the drop time? Because they have the decency to honour the press embargo.

And how is it that this thread, a critique (for better, for worse, or both) of Massdrop, their audio products, their business model and their way of doing it, became a need for SBAF members to defend themselves? OK, I get that Marv asked about how it appears amd thus, answers, but... within the scope of ordinary, normal human frailty, I see no case against SBAF or anything for those core members to feel they need to defend. They are doing what they do; it is part of what happens here; the rest of us benefit from it.

It wouldn't be SBAF without Marv advising wait six months to a prospective DAC or Amp purchaser. We know he has something on the shelf. We could take a fair bet on a small handful of companies to be watching. If there is anything there but benefit all round, I don't see it.

And yes, we know what the alternative looks like. Hands up those who are seriously thinking of leaving SBAF and going back there?

 

Number two checking in, I fear. Hands seems to like things a little warm, Marvey is a neutralhead as far as I can tell, and generally comparing their (surprisingly consistent) comments gives me a pretty good idea of how something will sound. I think a good ear and consistency will get you a long way.

That's how I generally use the hive mind IRL- if I come across people who are well-informed, a bit sceptical and relatively level-headed, I tend to steal their data points shamelessly. It doesn't make them the last word on anything, but it's always worth knowing what they reckon, to increase the sum total of info available.

However, I don't know anyone else IRL who is actually obsessed by audio in the same way, so some of the more reliable posters here are certainly useful. It doesn't mean that I shouldn't take any expensive purchase seriously and think for myself, but it's nice to have some extra points of view from people who don't seem to be complete twats and who know their stuff.