Don Sachs Model 2 Line Stage

Discussion in 'Preamps' started by winders, Dec 14, 2017.

  1. winders

    winders boomer

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    What @tomchr says certainly applies. Just because you can do the work yourself does not mean that the value of the work done by someone else is minimized. It may be worth less to you, but not to everyone. Also, you are making the assumption that all this person brings to the table is labor. I could save a fortune building my own race engines for my race car. But, I would be giving up power and reliability in the process. So I gladly pay my engine builder what he charges to get that extra performance and reliability. He has knowledge and experience I don't have and could never get. He knows where it makes sense to use different/special parts to either improve performance or reliability. This is even true in initial chassis setup. Anyone can set camber, toe, caster, etc., right? Anyone can buy shocks and springs, right? Anyone can set ride height, right? Using the right parts and settings is where all the magic is. The bottomline is that there is often a lot more to the work people do other than the actual labor itself. This applies to line stage builds just as much as it does to race car builds. Even if Don Sachs offered his version of the SP14 in a kit I would not try to build it myself. I don't have the experience and probably not the skill to do so. Don does not offer his version in a kit so there is real value in what Don does here. I would have no idea what caps would be best where. I have no idea where it would make sense to use Takman or Kiwame resistors. He has intellectual property that I will never have and that has value.

    Hell, the guy that created the DIY design pimps Don's version as superior!!

    Value proposition? Value to whom? Based on what? You are just pontificating on this point.

    I certainly wish that the best preamp in the world cost $5. But let's get real. Quality parts cost money and you need quality parts to get the best sound. A high priced preamp may not sound good, but a high quality and great sounding preamp is not going to be inexpensive. So yes, Freya is not expensive enough to have the parts needed to get the sound I wanted. Freya is a great value. You can't beat it for value. I discovered I wanted more than value out of my preamp.

    My issues with Freya had nothing to do with the stepped attenuator. Yes, it is noisy but I don't change volume enough for that to be a problem. Heck, I defended Freya's stepped attenuator.

    The tube noise situation was certainly an annoyance as I bought a lot of tubes trying to find pairs that were quiet. Another annoyance was how Freya and Vidar and the tubes interacted with my high efficiency speakers (you can criticize my choice of them now). The Pioneer M-22 that replaced Vidar helped reduce the tube noise at the speakers. It does have 3.2dB less gain than Vidar. Freya does seem to emphasize tube noise. I am not the only one to notice this.

    Freya does sound very good. It is a great value. I wanted better sound....so shoot me.

    This is where you become a real asshat.

    I didn't realize that members describing and showing pictures of a new component created an "advertisement aspect" to a thread. I certainly am not trying to sell anything. I was trying to share.

    What disturbing pattern? What products have I bought and sold off? Let's see:

    I bought a Vidar and Pioneer M-22 amps to compare with the plan being keep the one that worked best in my system. I sold the Vidar as I didn't need the power and sonically it was inferior in just about every way to the Pioneer M-22. I even kept the Vidar for a while but I never used it so why keep it.

    I bought the Freya and kept it for 7 months. I think I kept Freya long enough to "digest it".

    I am selling my Yggdrasil. I have had it for over 10 months. I think it is a fantastic DAC. I had a chance to buy another DAC, the PS Audio DirectStream, that I had heard and wanted to evaluate in my system. The price was too good to pass up. My plan was to keep the DAC I liked best and sell the other. That's what I am doing.

    I am taking the time to build my system. The only component that I didn't keep long was Vidar. When I first decided to build my 2 channel setup, I had a budget in mind that required high value components. Schiit Audio had the high value components I was looking for. My plan was an all Schiit Audio rack. Once I had that rack of components assembled, I began to realize that I wanted better sound than I had budgeted for. I was more interested in improving sound quality than I was in "value". The Pioneer M-22 was the first step down that path. The Don Sachs Model 2 preamp was the second step.

    What's most disturbing here is you thinking you get to judge me. How dare I buy a preamp that I think is better than Freya and costs 4 times as much? Such sacrilege! If you have questions, ask them. If you want to be judgmental, piss off!
     
  2. winders

    winders boomer

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    I will post some impressions soon.....
     
  3. bengo

    bengo Friend

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    @winders Your impressions don't mention any negative points, or compare against anything except Freya (which I assume is from memory only, as I think you sold it already).

    Your DS should be able to drive M-22 directly, perhaps you could compare direct vs Don Sachs especially regarding transparency and micro details (plankton)?
     
  4. winders

    winders boomer

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    I have no negatives to mention other than I wish it didn't cost as much. All of those points were made before I sold the the Freya.

    You know what, you are right. I clearly don't know anything and should not be contributing here, I am sorry for wasting your time.
     
  5. Azteca

    Azteca Friend

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    I just discovered this thread and would still be interested in your impressions.
    Reading through, I can say there is very little written about how it sounds.
    All the drama and antagonism aside, I'd love to read some more detailed notes. Maybe compared with preamps you've owned previously, maybe compared with skipping preamp and running direct. How does it affect soundstage, dynamics, is the background more black or grey? Is it pleasingly coherent and gelled together in a euphonic way, or is separation maintained? What makes this the one for you?
    I look forward to it.
     
  6. brencho

    brencho Friend

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    Seriously let's keep this about the component and impressions of the thing. The temptation to keep responding to old posts is real but this is pretty polarizing and antagonistic. Let's move on.
     
  7. winders

    winders boomer

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    This is for those that are genuinely interested in my impressions instead of looking to find flaws. Here is the post I deleted unedited:

    I now have over 200 hours on the Don Sachs Model 2 preamp. Some of these impressions were noted at around the 100 hour mark. Comparisons are to Freya in tube gain mode unless otherwise stated.

    The sound is clean and clear. The tubes don't really seem to be coloring the sound much as the tonal qualities sound quite like Freya in JFET mode or when using the PS Audio DirectStream as a preamp. In other words, the sound is not particularly warm. I would say neutral to slightly warm. This is with the Shuguang Treasure Series CV181-z tubes. Freya in tube gain mode did not affect the color of sound much either.

    The background is quite black even compared to Freya in passive mode. The background becomes especially black when using the DirectStream instead of Yggdrasil. I suspect at least some this has to do with the Aikido tube buffer circuit in the preamp.

    The bass sounds like it extends lower and is more present without being overpowering or blurred. The bass is tighter and has nice detail and clarity to it. There is more of it and it sounds better. The midrange has a sweeter sound to it. I know that is not very technical but that is what comes to mind. Male voices have more depth to them. The highs exhibit less sibilance but still maintain their detail and clarity. I can listen to higher sound pressure levels with less fatigue.

    The overall sound is quite smooth with little digital harshness. At first I though there was less detail But the more I listened and compared, I found there was actually a little more detail. It just wasn't in your face about it.

    The soundstage is more three dimensional. This manifests itself in depth and height. Width is comparable to Freya. Voice and instrument locations are more defined within the soundstage. Again, this becomes more pronounced with the DirectStream. The difference compared to Freya is that the sound is more dynamic and alive. I suspect the channel separation provided by the dual mono design of the preamp and amp come into play here. Voices and instruments that sound like they are coming from the same spot with Freya have separation with the Don Sachs Model 2. This is particularly noticeable with Classical music. Because of this, and suppose other reasons, this preamp sounds more alive and more musical to me than Freya. It sounds more real. It is much more enjoyable to listen to.

    I do plan on doing some tube rolling as I have 6 or so different tube types to try. Don Sachs says the Shuguang tubes are the best he has tried. If that is the case, I guess I will be selling some tubes!

    The Don Sachs Model 2 does everything better than Freya in tube gain mode. Since I found Freya's Passive and JFET modes boring compared to her tube gain mode, I don't think I am going to miss them much.

    Based on what I am hearing, this preamp is well worth the price of admission and I consider it money well spent. In fact, I would go so far as to say that even though it is not as inexpensive as Freya, it has similar value. I think it is that good! It works really well with my Pioneer M-22 and my new PS Audio DirectStream DAC. It's strange, but the only Schiit component left in my 2 channel rack is a headphone amp, the Mjolnir 2.
     
  8. winders

    winders boomer

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    My rack went from looking like this:

    [​IMG]

    To looking like this:

    IMG_1423.JPG

    I couldn't be happier with the sound.

    Note: Don't buy a rack with fixed shelf locations UNTIL you are positive you know the height of the components you will have.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2017
  9. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

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    Thanks for taking the time to write that up!
     
  10. Garns

    Garns Friend

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    Thanks for the impressions. Did you compare with passive? I ask since Freya tube mode lacks clarity, drops low level details and textures and smooths over the sound compared to passive. Any thoughts on how your new pre fares in this regard?
     
  11. winders

    winders boomer

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    Yes, I compared the DS Model 2 to both the Freya in passive mode and to the DirectStream acting as a preamp. I never liked Freya in passive or JFET mode. While technically very competent in passive mode, Freya sounded flat with a 2 dimensional soundstage. The DS Model 2 sounds quite smooth, it has all the detail and more texture than Freya has in passive mode. As I commented above, I initially thought that the DS Model 2 smoothed over the detail. But as I listened more critically, I found I was wrong. All the detail is there while being less harsh.

    Actually, I was surprised to find I liked the DirectStream as a preamp better than Freya in passive mode. It sounds less flat.

    As I mentioned previously on this site, I have never like passive preamps. Even back in the mid 80's I found active preamps to be more engaging and fun to listen to.

    I found this video interesting:

     
  12. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Goddammit you porkers. First half of this thread sucks. Vader is displeased. Let this not happen again.
    1. Just get straight to impressions. Don't wait 162 posts and @brencho to remind you until you do so.
    2. DIY vs. no DIY: Yeah, we all know WTF is involved. "Cheaper" in context of DIY is understood to also involve time and unforseen headaches.
    Don't reply to Vader on reasons for your failures. Just don't fail again.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
  13. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Shut the f**k up. We know. Your sheet metal and BMW analogy sucks.
     
  14. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex SBAF's Imelda Marcos

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    Someone’s been NYE drinking :)

     
  15. winders

    winders boomer

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    Just a follow up with a photo of my setup on an adjustable rack:

    IMG_1438.JPG

    It's not as sturdy or handsome as the all wood fixed shelf rack. But it will do for now.
     
  16. Cspirou

    Cspirou They call me Sparky

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    Why do you have the Don Sachs pre and the Freya in your rack? Still evaluating?

    Edit:

    I didn't look close enough. See @bengo below
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2018
  17. bengo

    bengo Friend

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    That's a Mjolnir 2.
     
  18. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

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    @bazelio @winders Did you fellas ever get a chance to connect and compare gears?
     
  19. tubeguy22

    tubeguy22 MOT: Don Sachs

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    Hi...
    Don Sachs here. I signed up because I have been reading this fine forum for quite some time, especially the DAC threads (yes I have a Yggdrasil and am about #140 in the queue for the latest upgrade). Also have a multibit Gungnir Multibit. Anyway I signed up because a customer had pointed out this thread. I enjoyed it, except the part where I was accused of "pimping someone's design". First off, I am not selling anything here and would never do that. Just wanted to point out a couple of things. Roy Mottram and I are friends. I built a very early SP14 and was amazed at how good it was. I then proceeded to analyze it and improve it. Some of those improvements have found their way into the kit he sells, such as a MUCH thicker and better quality PC board that I convinced him to have made, and is now standard. There are power supply improvements that I shared as well that all buyers now have the benefit of getting. If you get a kit from Roy today it is considerably better sounding than the first one I built a few years ago. So I hardly think I am "pimping someone else's design", but rather I helped him improve it and it helps both of us, and the kit builders. There are a number of improvements I don't share (I have to make a living too). For example, I run the circuit at a different operating point that sounds better to me. Also, I noted that someone was complaining that I was using $500 worth of parts and selling a $2000 preamp. Well, those cost estimates are way off and that is all I will say. My version sounds like it does partly because of the parts choices. I wish I was making $1500 per preamp! At any rate, no more, just that I pay myself a decent wage to build gear, whether preamps, power amps, or phono preamps. I am not getting rich. I love tubes and the tube sound. If I get far enough ahead then I will try and build a demo unit that can be passed around here on super audio best friends.... and I don't "pimp designs" and charge the usual 3 - 4X markup on the build cost of tube gear that many of the commercial builders do... that's all.

    Best of luck to all and happy listening.
    Don
     
  20. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

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    @tubeguy22 Thanks for stopping by, Don! Happy to hear you found this place!
     

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