Solid-State Power Amp Adventures

Discussion in 'Power Amps' started by purr1n, Jan 24, 2017.

  1. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2017
    Likes Received:
    7,738
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Canada
    This is very interesting stuff.

    Is there any kind of a list or site out there that would talk to some of the best "vintage" amps that might be worthy of restoring and that would significantly outperform a new amp in a similar or higher price range? I'm aware of the m22/25 but not really many/any others.
     
  2. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2016
    Likes Received:
    10,696
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    NOVA
    Home Page:
  3. winders

    winders boomer

    Banned
    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2017
    Likes Received:
    1,596
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    San Martin, CA
    I really hate my my Pioneer M-22....really...no one should buy them. They suck!
     
  4. dmckean44

    dmckean44 In a Sherwood S6040CP relationship

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2016
    Likes Received:
    1,425
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Peoria, IL
    Not really, at least nothing comprehensive, but it's easy enough to search for specs, service manual and some listening impressions online and figure out if it's a good canidate for restoration or not.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2017
  5. murphythecat

    murphythecat GRU-powered uniformed trumpkin

    Pyrate Banned
    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2016
    Likes Received:
    1,201
    Trophy Points:
    93
    yes, one must look the schematic.


    "For 1K I'd probably look for some of the late 80's early 90's
    Japanese integrated a bit below "flagship" level (flagships are
    overengineered and often do not sound as good as simpler mid-level units, with
    very simple circuitry. There are good example from many brands, to me Denon, Luxman,
    Onkyo and Sony stand out. But make sure to get the right models."

    Sony ta707/808, denon pma1560, luxman L-510/513 are good
    examples
     
  6. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    2,750
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Calgary, Alberta
    Home Page:
    Can someone confirm/deny this adage that higher/top quality SS amps will double-down power from 8->4 ohms. Is this a sign of the overall quality of the unit or one specific part of the amp and not really representative of its overall performance/quality?
     
  7. Peter

    Peter New

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2017
    Likes Received:
    18
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    New Zealand
    Doubling down from 8 to 4 ohms is indicative of the quality of the power supply. The question you need to ask yourself is, so what?

    Are you running efficient 8 Ohms speakers? If so, then the power into 4 Ohms is irrelevant. You just need to make sure that the power into 8 Ohms is sufficient.

    Are you running power hungry speakers that are 4 Ohms or less? Then you should care, because you will easily hear it if your amp is not up to the task, the bass in particular will be weak. The sound quality will suffer in other respects, it will seem one dimensional and congested if your amplifier is struggling.

    To me a good power supply is really representative of overall quality, but feel free to disagree.
     
  8. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

    Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    7,467
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Winnipeg
    If I had the dosh to throw around I'd be getting a Powersoft X8...
     
  9. Forza AudioWorks

    Forza AudioWorks MOT: Forza AudioWorks

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2017
    Likes Received:
    384
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Poland
    Can't agree with that, sorry. Let's skip Class AB for a second. Class D is meant to be used where Class A can't be. The difference between the two is more than substantial not only sound wise but how they interact with given speakers. There's no comparison really.

    If, for example, you have thick, sluggish floorstanders of low sensitivity and harsh impedance, class D fits better in such scenario usually. Class A able to handle such speakers would be very hot, very heavy and very pricey if of quality, unless you go vintage/used stuff probably.

    I'm not a class D advocate, I adore class A, but the latter isn't a remedy to every audio pain there is. Unless one wants to boast in front of friends that his amp is huge and looks pro, but that's silly. And will it sound good in every situation? Nope, it won't. My point is that audio is a puzzle to solve. In order to get it done, one has to know what element fits where.

    Class D is getting better and better. For example, nCore modules are affordable and very good for what they are.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2017
  10. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

    Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    2,153
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Estonia
    ...
    You spelled my thoughts out yourself. NCORE modules for diy-ers + matching psu-s with enclosure cost much less than 2k.
    The real cost of producing those modules is a magnitude less. There are a few barely expensive parts in switching apparatus.
    I agree that NCore amp sounds good, but better than good class A-B? This needs some further investigation.
    And why should we forget about class A-B when assessing class-D? It's the closest competing tech, when not counting multi-rail amplifiers.

    edit:
    My angle in this is purely from technical perspective. I'm not biased for or against any of the classes of operation, maybe a little towards pure class A when I can use it.

    An amp with NC500 oem modules thrown in with some swichers psu-s and 'custom' input stage is not genius engineering (apart from knowledge what Bruno has put in to the underlying mode of operation), there are no real expensive parts inside it, apart from potentiometer, if there is one. The chassis can be small, no big heatsinks are required. Where do these amp makers suck out the prices like 5k$, 8k$.. or even more?
    It could be done for cheap; for no loss in sound quality, and there are offerings that are reasonably priced, too, only usually in shadow of the stupidly expensive ones.
    This is like the smartphone business, the greediness pisses me off.
    Forgive my apparent grumpy tone, I'm a cheap diy nut, who values every cent I could get ripped off.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2017
  11. bengo

    bengo Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2017
    Likes Received:
    1,371
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Divisive Kingdom
    Home Page:
    I would assume that bi-amping with class D (big Watts for big inefficient woofers) + class A (small, high-quality Watts) would be one solution. Bi-amping by itself has advantages, and the downsides of class D sound quality hopefully are much less noticeable on the lower end. I don't have much practical experience here (yet... my car is all class D, but considering an outboard class A amp for tweeters).
     
  12. Forza AudioWorks

    Forza AudioWorks MOT: Forza AudioWorks

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2017
    Likes Received:
    384
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Poland
    There are loads which will fare far better with sub $2k class D than $2k or slightly upwards class AB. It all depends on a given floorstanders. I use such a product daily. In most cases Class AB will prolly sound better, but each scenario is different and should be scoped individually, that's what I'm sayin'..

    True that. One post earlier I was merely addressing the D vs A matter, class AB is a different thing.
     
  13. Peter

    Peter New

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2017
    Likes Received:
    18
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    New Zealand
    I have had a few amplifiers over the years. One of the best I ever tried was a NAD 2200. Wow, that was really something, it made my small bookshelf JBL speakers rock. A great listen.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I was so impressed that I later purchased a NAD 208. My thinking was that the 208 was bigger, so it must be better. Well, wrong. To me the 208 always sounded a bit lazy, and boring. I guess it was built for power, not sound quality. I think it was biased to run at a very low idle power. It was pretty much always cold to the touch, no matter what.

    [​IMG]

    I can recommend a 2200 sound wise, but apparently they commonly have issues like failing relays. If you can get a restored 2200 with upgraded relays you will have something good.
     
  14. iFi audio

    iFi audio MOT iFi Audio

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2017
    Likes Received:
    1,284
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Many places.
    Home Page:
    Oldie but goldie. Some people in our company still remember vintage NAD products with tears in their eyes..
     
  15. dmckean44

    dmckean44 In a Sherwood S6040CP relationship

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2016
    Likes Received:
    1,425
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Peoria, IL
    Any impressions to share with SBAF now that it's been a month?
     
  16. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2016
    Likes Received:
    10,696
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    NOVA
    Home Page:
    I've had mine up and running since November. All impressions are compared to my Cayin EL34 integrated running pass-thru w/Freya preamp (using both tube (preferred) and JFET stages; didn't spend much time using passive output)*:
    • Great bass definition, good punch and power (aside: I had to turn my subs down about 30% and crossed them over @ 40hz, down from 80hz, after adding the NuForce)
    • A little cool in the upper midrange, but lower midrange (and a bit into the upper bass) is more palpable
    • Better instrument/image specificity and separation
    • Soundstage is less wide, but much better depth - no "crazy imaging outside of the speakers" **
    • Better air/sense of space around instruments and voices
    • Macro dynamics are better, less "tubey-syrup" softening transients
    • Lacks a little of the tube magic with tone/harmonics and body, but a good set of tubes in Freya brings this back into play
    • Overall, compared to my old integrated, the NuForce highlights great bass pitch definition and heft, and really opens up the upper end of the treble without sounding strident or forced
    • I'm still playing with minor tweaks; cheap footers, 6db inline attenuators (93dB/w speakers + Freya tube stage = hisss), cables, etc., but there's no way I'd go back to the EL34 integrated at this point
    Hope that helps!

    * I spent 3 listening sessions comparing the amps directly. After about 5 hours total listening between the two, farting around with cables and wires and moving things around, I'd had enough.
    ** I've read some thoughts that "crazy imaging outside the speakers" on tracks that don't use any phase tomfoolery is actually a sign that there are some phase issues with the speakers themselves, but I'd like to hear more thoughts from folks who know more about this than I do. In other words, listening to something like Cowboy Junkies The Trinity Session isn't some shock-and-awe HIFI hyper-real event (like I was kind of expecting given the better detail and treble response); but instead, it's much more believable or authentic.
     
  17. Forza AudioWorks

    Forza AudioWorks MOT: Forza AudioWorks

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2017
    Likes Received:
    384
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Poland
    Mine is still at customs clearance, maybe (just maybe) I'll be able to finally hear it before weekend.
     
  18. Neal

    Neal Facebook Friend

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2016
    Likes Received:
    176
    Trophy Points:
    33
    Location:
    DC
    To me it sounds more balanced from top to bottom than Vidar, although I never owned them both at the same time. My gripes are that it has a bit of that dry, solid state sound, and it struggles slightly when music gets really complex. The biggest complement I can give it is that even though it is significantly cheaper than my DAC(Gungnir Multibit) and speakers(Bhavas), I dont feel a compulsive desire to upgrade from it. It's good enough that I can just sit back and enjoy the music, and not feel like something is missing/wrong.
     
  19. Forza AudioWorks

    Forza AudioWorks MOT: Forza AudioWorks

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2017
    Likes Received:
    384
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Poland
    To simply sit and relax with no urge to change anything is - to me at least - a clear indicator that right decision was made, which is liberating. At least for time being, until another audio itch to scratch will appear... That's unavoidable too:eek:
     
  20. Ray

    Ray Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,302
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    On the range
    47B9C9C9-A2CA-45ED-92BD-C29489B1654C.png Picked this up off eBay. Mosfet design, 50watts per ch. seller was asking 345.00, offered 300.00. All my listening is w/ the he-6. This amp smokes my vidar.
     

Share This Page