EC Aficionado (was: The Studio Jr.)

Discussion in 'Headphone Amplifiers and Combo (DAC/Amp) Units' started by AppleheadMay, Nov 10, 2015.

  1. BillOhio

    BillOhio Friend

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    The JJ's sounded glossed over for the first day and a half and I was a little worried about them, but before to long I guess they burned in. I like them.

    Tempe is 5 1/2 hours. I'm kind of halfway tempted.
     
  2. kirayamato

    kirayamato Friend

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    whats the difference between grey plate rca's and the black? besides the visual anyone know? asking since the black ones are expensive
     
  3. Taverius

    Taverius Smells like sausages

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    They sound different :)

    I'm not trying to be facetious here, even tubes with the same basic internals can sound different from small variations, ex. EH and Genalex current production 2A3s sound somewhat different, even though they have the same internals and are made in the same factory; the same is true for NOS tubes which all share say, RCA internals but minor differences give some a different sound.

    Think of it this way: one tube internal layout is like a car year model, which looks the same from the outside but might have different engine specs, and maybe one is a manual transmission with massage seats, and then different year models might only look slightly different but drive very differently. And so on.
     
  4. kirayamato

    kirayamato Friend

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    ok cool what differences did you hear?
     
  5. Garns

    Garns Friend

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    EDIT: impressions rescinded because I am a dum dum. Leaving them here for posterity.

    Some very early impressions after c. 20 hours listening. AF is bone stock. My eventual plan is to use this with high-sensitivity speakers but until I move house later in the year there is no room for that. So, at the moment, it's headphones.

    Note that most of my usual listening is done with K+H O300 monitors which basically my ideal sound, neutral to neutral-bright with excellent clarity, separation and speed. I'm not much of a headphone person, but up to now I have been using the Valhalla 2.

    Chain: Yggdrasil XLR -> Mogami 3080 -> AF -> HD800 with mods to bring up the mids.

    Tubes: Amperex Sittard GZ34, WE396a, Sylvania dual flat plate 2A3.

    The good
    • Absolutely first rate microdynamics and microdetail, the best I've heard. I care a lot about micro stuff.
    • Details are presented very naturally; they are present but not in your face
    • Timbre is great
    • Grain free and smooth
    • Excellent layering
    The neutral
    • Soundstage dimensions seem... okay. I don't really care much about headstage, but it seems slightly better than Valhalla 2? Not by much though.
    • The presentation is pretty relaxed. This could be a good thing or a bad thing depending on who you are.
    • Speed is okay. I feel like it could be a bit faster. Could just be the HD800 though.
    The bad
    • The bottom octave (30-60) is weak. Above that there is a hump. Overall the bass is somewhat muddy
    • Roll off in the top octave giving a lack of air and a "closed in" feeling. The whole tonality of the amp is tilted rather warm of neutral.
    • There is some haze/veil and compression. Low level detail sits naturally at the ear but the overall dynamics feel constricted, and there is a lack of clarity. It's like it's so zoomed in on the micro level that you lose a sense of the big picture.
    I am going to give this amp a bunch more hours as is. But I suspect it will require modding to get to something I like. On the one hand it is more laid back, dark and bassy than I am happy with. On the other the haze/veil is a problem. I like to be able to see into the structure of a piece of music and observe all the bits floating around. The AF in some sense achieves this through its excellent layering, but I feel like this is faking it. I would much prefer it were achieved through having excellent clarity, separation and lack of compression.

    Note on tubes: Tubes move the sound a fair bit. For output tubes I also tried RCA black wavy plate and Sylvania black wavy plate. I preferred the Sylvania dual mono plate which seem to have better microdynamics and better extension at both ends. The RCA are the most rolled off at the top.

    For drivers I tried Bendix and LM Ericsson. Both have more (needed) energy at the top end but have obviously worse microdynamics. One of the things I feel a bit sad about is that apparently the only driver tube in this family with excellent microdynamics is also warmbutt. However I am reserving judgement until I've broken my other driver tubes in a bit more.

    Note on headphones: I also tried with HD650. The synergy seemed pretty bad to me. The midbass hump, bass distortion, and roll-off in the bottom and top octave of the HD650 bring out the worst traits of the AF. Also imo the HD650 just doesn't have the technicalities to match the AF. Overall it felt like I was listening to music through a sock. The HD800 seems like a much more sensible pairing.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2018
  6. BillOhio

    BillOhio Friend

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    @Garns I'll be curious to see your impression with different caps.
     
  7. Boops

    Boops Friend

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    @BillOhio is right that the EHs don't suck for the price. They are very clear, detailed, and decently extended up top. Their weak point is the low end. For me, gray plate RCAs were better. More balanced, fuller sound. EML mesh were better still: improved on the detail, clarity and extension of the EHs and added tight, punchy low end. But there's a significant jump in price.

    Haven't heard the JJs.
     
  8. BillOhio

    BillOhio Friend

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    I concur.
     
  9. nachocheese70

    nachocheese70 Facebook Friend

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    @Garns based on your issue with a veil/haze and lack of air with stock AF (using what should be Audyn interstage cap),I would highly recommend the Jupiter Copper Foil.

    It may not be the “best” possible cap for your needs/system, and in my case I have an older design 2A3, but in my EC amp this cap specifically helped with these two areas. For the bass, I sense slightly more quantity and more punch, but I wouldn’t really say it tightened it any more. But that said I didn’t consider the stock EC muddy however I’m coming from Mjolnir 2 that was muddier so you may have completely different impression.
     
  10. nachocheese70

    nachocheese70 Facebook Friend

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    If I ever get to go to Sydney for work (my company has a plant in Wetherill Park), I can bring a pair of really good sounding Telefunken E188CC I used with Mjolnir 2. Just need to get a 6922 to 5670 adapter (cheap and easy to get in China). Normally this tube is never worth it to get due to ridiculous pricing, but cost aside considering just the sound for me the Telefunken excelled at the micro stuff better than JW WE396A and GE JAN + 5 Star (never could find have Bendix or LM Ericcson). It did not have any of the bottom end quantity or punch of any of the 5670/396A, but what it had was noticeably tighter. For me I liked the Telefunken for Mjolnir 2 better because of synergy; I felt the Mjolnir 2 was already a slam and warm amp with obvious veil so the Telefunken helped strengthen its weakness.

    Given your other issues with the AF so far, it’s making me think these could help out overall.
     
  11. bengo

    bengo Friend

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    Yggdrasil original or "Yggdrasil A2" (Analog 2 upgraded)?

    Clarity should be better with the upgraded version.
     
  12. cskippy

    cskippy Creamy warmpoo

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    @Garns cheapest upgrade will be Pangea interconnects. They reduce mid bass bloat/emphasis, improve sound stage area and extend treble. Definitely worth a try IMO.
     
  13. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    No feedback SET will never have solid-state like tight bass. You can always take the tertiary winding and use feedback (while at this, the cap bypass on the drivers can be eliminated). Even 2db of feedback makes a huge difference to bass quality. However, other aspects like microdynamics, liveliness, immediacy may suffer, along with 4db less gain. It's about tradeoffs. There is no right or wrong, just different approaches and preferences.
     
  14. Garns

    Garns Friend

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    Thanks for the suggestions, guys. I have a pretty good idea about what I want to change, and I enjoy fiddling about with this sort of stuff. Just thought I'd report my experiences with the stock tuning first. The bass is actually quite far down my list of priorities. Mostly it's the clarity, in particular in the midrange, that I want to improve right now. Note I'm being super picky and sizing it up against my monitors which have excellent clarity and separation from the same source. Unfair apples and oranges comparison but I figure it should be possible to get the technicalities in the same ballpark. Step zero is to give my driver tubes a decent run in and see if they improve. Step one is going to be to ditch the Russian caps and fit some new ones. Hopefully with the right choice that should improve clarity and get the tonality a bit leaner and brighter at the same time. It's going to be a while before I can do this though (need to hunt down a tech in Sydney who can lend a hand).
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2018
  15. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    For what you described, try the AudioCap PPT Theta. The Jupiters are what I would described as more colored sounding.
     
  16. Maxx134

    Maxx134 Dunning–Kruger effect poster boy

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    First red flag that something isn't right.
    The Afficionado has one of the largest soundstage available in stock form.


    ok, agreed.
    This contradiction of posts is another red flag that something not right.
    So you have microdetail but with an added haze/veil?
    sounds alot to me like the HD800 diffuse soundstage,
    but thats besides the point.

    I have heard the Afficionado again at a friends house.
    It sounds the same as I heard it at last meet.
    Great trebles and air.

    My take, is that it can be his Yggdrasil.
    He did state he is using the Yggdrasil simultaneous with another unit.

    I have not tested update board personally, but do I know the original Yggdrasil can change and distort in bass when simultaneously using both types output on some gear (not all).

    Another common problem is using new tubes.
    both new production and old stock tubes have similar issue of sounding dull when new.


    Yggdrasil A2 said to have more output for this same reason.

    Thats a good point. hybrid and solid state both have transistors delivering the current, unlike pure tube amplification.
    I will make some comparisons.
    As is, the Afficionado has top transparency compared to other TOTLs.
    IT already, in stock form, has the clarity and realism,
    and has better soundstage and clearer sound over both woo33 normal edition,and Cayin HA-300 amp.
    It is not as lush as the Cayin, yet not as sterile (at all) like the wa33 "elite".
    I was listening to it side by side with the Cayin 3 days ago, so memory is fresh.
    I am fairly dumbfounded with impressions all over the place, in this thread about the Afficionado.
    My take is that stock is already giving you end game sound, just a matter of tunning as usual.
    I personally like the added thickness of the Cayin 300b tube to give a bit more "meat" on the bones,
    But the stock Afficionado was still better nuanced in micro detailing and still a bit more spacious stage.
    the driver tube was the western elec,
    and the power 2a3 tubes were some RCA , I believe.
    It was run off a Yggdrasil.

    If I owned the afficionado, I would be afraid to upgrade with Jupiter,
    and loose the slight tube sound it has, as it is a bit less than Cayin (and also less than wo33 stock, and way much cleaner),
    so I would hesitate about the Jupiter, and prob go for the duelunds which are known to have good low end.
    That would raise the total price to the Cayin.

    Actually I could have even ask for a 300b option when ordering the Afficionado,
    But thats me as I enjoy a richer sound for the HD800/Utopis/Diana, which seem to need that extra, to make those headphones sing.

    Bottom line, Afficionado in stock is already up at top where you wanna be,
    End-game level amp, which looks better to upgrade over the Cayin,
    (which actually also need driver tube roll, & an upgrade cleaning with Jupiter,
    in order to "catch up" to the Afficionado, as it is using some mundorf evo coupling caps...).
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2018
  17. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    In my opinion the only thing that isn't right is the performance of this amplifier in stock form for the price.

    I didn't intend to participate in this thread as my time with the Aficionado was brief and I returned mine for a full refund. I'm pretty disappointed to see someone sharing impressions of it be told that he needs one of the following to get it to perform to expectations (which, no matter how well you attempt to temper them, will be high for any piece of gear at this price point):
    • Better interconnects
    • A $550 upgrade for his $2300 DAC
    • $80 in boutique capacitors & a voided warranty for swapping them
    • More expensive tubes
    • Better headphones
    Especially disappointing to see it coming from people who have no experience with the amplifier or those who have only auditioned "at a friends house".

    I found this amplifier in stock form to be extremely underwhelming in terms of overall performance. I used it with HD650s, a Yggdrasil A2 and a CD transport. I would agree with nearly everything @Garns said. Micro stuff was good but that was about it. The bass felt quite rolled in the lower octaves and there was no sense of weight or tactility behind notes. The presentation felt fairly claustrophobic and smeared, both in terms of image and also a transient bloom.

    For all that was espoused about the deep/holographic headstage of this amp I agree that it wasn't really much better at all than the Valhalla 2. There was no OTL veil but there was an obvious dimming of the top octave. There was an obvious sense of exaggerated attack or bite that was just annoying in a lot of the recordings I listened to, especially given that there was little weight to the fundamental afterwards.

    Overall I found this amplifier to be highly colored and not in an enjoyable fashion. It contains the type of compromises I would expect from a circa $1000 amplifier like the Torpedo III. I will not comment on any of the proposed modifications in this thread other than to say an amp in this price point shouldn't require them to sing. I've spoken with many other owners, some who shared my feelings and quickly sold the amp on and others who tried their hands at tweaking basically everything except for the transformers themselves. My conclusion was that it wasn't worth doing for me and I sent it back to EC.

    Full disclaimer: my amp also arrived damaged (intermittently cutting out in one channel and a rather large nick on the faceplate). In an attempt to diagnose the issue and then find a fair resolution I received some of the worst customer service I've ever experienced from Craig and I will never own an EC product again as a result. I would have had ZERO issue selling the amplifier for a loss as I have done with many other pieces of equipment that didn't tickle my fancy, if not for the fact that it actually arrived in a state where I couldn't. It is not in my interest to discourage those waiting for their order to arrive or even really to stop others from ordering. It just ticked me off to see someone share an honest opinion and get what basically amounts to bullshit in replies.
     
  18. Maxx134

    Maxx134 Dunning–Kruger effect poster boy

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    ....
     
  19. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    I like this post of yours a lot more than your other ones where you use 50 paragraphs to say the same thing: nothing.
     
  20. Maxx134

    Maxx134 Dunning–Kruger effect poster boy

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    thats because I was trying to write a usefull post unlike yours .
    thats what I came up with for now.
     

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