OTLs, tube rolling, and other glowing delights

Thanks for the inspiration, just cranked up the Conductor its really a very nice sounding 3in1, DAC uses ESS SABRE chip .,nice big soundstage bigger than my other amps, instrument separation im kinda surprised at what im hearing its been awhile i guess .Very nice bass i always liked a little more bass ,these days been using my players EQ to add or remove a little here and there with very nice results i like it . By the way your 6BQ7A is an RCA anything particular to look for . Do you have a daytime picture of the inside structure .i have Westinghouse that you saw and this one in picture Thanks

 

Since my question has gone unanswered in the general advice thread for a day or so, guess I'll ask here as well. I'm thinking about getting a good tube amp to compliment my Carbon, might get into rolling some day.

Around the $1K mark, what tube amps do you guys really like?

 

What's your primary headphone choice? What source are you using? What kind of sound you like?

As you can see from the thread, tube rolling can potentially cause people to listen more to tubes than actual music that they are constantly buying new tubes for the flavor of the day. Once you get into tube land tube rolling should be inevitable. To be honest at the end of the day cheap new production tubes are not going to cut the mustard.

But anyway, my gut is telling me Ember II performs royally better than any Woo amps (but again, my Ember is using NOS Amperex Miniwatts 7308, while the WA6 and 7 I heard used stock tubes). Mijonir 2 would be a good call at around 1K mark. I personally liked ALO Pan Am (discontinued) but again^2 it was a long time ago.

If you can mod your cable into balanced or have balanced cable and can DIY, I can whole heartly recommend Bottlehead Mainline. Or you can do a full upgrade of Crack.

 

Picked up some tubes at @atomicbob's recommendation. I love/hate tube rolling and really wanted something current production to go with the Garage1217 Project Sunrise III.

Electro-Harmonix 12BH7 Gold Pin Pre-amp Vacuum Tube
http://www.ehx.com/products/12bh7-gold

Really nice and available for ~$25 on Amazon. The sound is quite good already after a bit over a day of listening. I actually enjoyed the Sennheiser HD598s I tried with the combo to make sure I didn't blow anything up. Added a lot of warmth and weight to the sound. HD650s sound superb, and the JVC HA-DX2000 sounds great, though the bass actually got tamed a bit somehow (it's usually a bit out of control, which I like).

It's now part of my work stack and I'm going to stick with the combo unless I ever decide I need more of anything.

The one criticism I have so far is that the bass weight isn't as pronounced as I was hoping with my JVCs, but the texture and control are excellent.

If I can find a current production (or easy-to-find <$40 NOS) tube that delivers tons of bass while still giving me nice mids and smooth treble, I'll probably roll one of those to compare.

Any suggestions are more than welcome!

 

I have no experience with current production tubes, so have no idea how the EH 12BH7 might compare to the following.... Affordable old-stock tubes I usually recommend would include an early 1960's Heerlen-made Philips 6DJ8/ECC88 and mid-1970's Reflector or Voskhod 6N23P.

 

I've got my full list of gear in my sig. I switch between headphones often, depending on my mood and what I'm listening to. Just looking for 'The Tubetm 'sound.

I might have to get into DIY if that's the case, crack or maybe mainline. I still don't know much about OTL vs. hybrid other than the obvious things, like OTL use the big tube to drive the headphones, where hybrid ones like Mjolnir 2 and Lyr use the tubes for input signal and solid state for power.

 

As above, generally speaking, OTL (output transformer-less) amps work best with high-Z cans. For low-Z cans, hyrbrids and transformer-coupled amps work best. The only OTL I am aware of that can handle low-Z cans well is the Glenn.

 

Well, I should have the HD-650 in a day or two when it arrives, but it's gonna have to compete against the HE-500 for quite a while before I decide which is 'better'. The Grados aren't getting a lot of head time, so I may sell those off when I get time to judge whether or not I want them. TH-X00 is low impedance like the HE-500, so they may get chained to the Carbon, but the 650 might get special treatment if I end up liking it. So OTL amps are back in the picture, even if they might not do justice with my other two/three cans.

I really like the community begind the bottlehead amps, since most of them are a bunch of nuts, and I'd love to try and build one of their amps.
But! In the few weeks I've been here on SBAF, I really have grown to appreciate Marv and what he does, which is why when he said something about a cheaper amp from EC in the Modi/ODac thread, I got excited. I'm thinking the Copperhead was what he was talking about, but I've already got a good SS amp, I'd rather get into tubes. I won't be getting the Super 7, sadly, since (alliteration) I won't be spending any money on audio until next winter. I totally outdid myself this year! I really don't need or want the resolution and insanity of a $2k+ amp like the Xanadu, but I'd love to get something solid from Marv since most here are sold on his stuff, I like the look of those dorky amps, and I want his babies.

 

If you are into DIY and want an amp that suits all kind of headphones, then don't forget the Cavalli EHHA. Its a wonderful amp that often doesn't get the praise it deserves.

 

Looks a little too complicated for me, especially looking at the circuit layout. The board looks a bit simpler, and I'm a visual person, but I've been a LEGO guy all my life. I need a few steps at a time demonstrated in pictures.
I might be a college student, but I still enjoy my picturebooks.

 

Bigferret did the quarter mod and took out the foam at the back of the driver. I might do the dynamat someday if I find money lying around.

Magni was powerful enough for me, since most recordings never even got the knob to 10 oclock. The carbon has a little over twice the power into balanced, so I'm definitely not worried about power. If I was, I'd get one of those hilarious Audio-GD integrated speaker amps.

 

@BioniclePhile : If your current mains are HE500 and X00, I strongly suggest that you don't need to go for tubes for the sake of tubes. The tube magic is not that significant unless you've personally heard it and was carried away. In terms of HE500 and X00, speaking as a former HE400S and current TH900 owner, I'd say they probably benefit better from a good SS amp far more than from a good tube amp. If however you think HD650 deserves a dedicated tube amp (like me), then by all means go for it.

Since this is an OTL tube thread, OTL stuff generally are not optimal matches to low-z cans. You can sure use something like UE buffer jack or essentially some impedance adaptor to do the trick, but at the end of the day it's not the way to go. For non-OTL stuff, I personally had a good relation with Lyr 2, finding it extremely low noise and powerful, but not quite to my taste (in comparison with Ember II, Lyr 2 is far less noisy and more dynamic, but lacks the delicay or tube-ish funness).

 

Hey guys, I'd have another question, has anyone tried 6n6p tubes and 6sn7 ones and could perhaps make a short comparison between their signatures ? I've heard they both have a warm sound signature, but I'd be interested in a few more specifics. Ty !

 

6N6P are often included in the same "family" with E182CC/7199, 5687 and 7044. However, the 6N6P is a 6.3V tube with the same pin-out as a 6DJ8, while the E182CC, 5687 and 7044 can be used in both 12.6V and 6.3V circuits, similar to the 12AU7. However, the pin-out is different from both the 12AU7 and 6DJ8. Also there is a new production tube, the ECC99, which can be used in both 12.6V and 6.3V circuits, with the same pin-out as a 12AU7.

I have no experience with the 6N6P or the ECC99. However, it is important to remember that the number of different 6SN7 versions is huge, and thus, there is no singular 6SN7 "sound". It is necessary to narrow it down to one 6SN7 and then make a comparison.

I do have experience with the E182CC, 5687 and 7044. As virtually all the 5687 and 7044 were manufactured by American companies, I find the best 6SN7 from each of these companies to be better. For example, I prefer the Sylvania 6SN7W over the Sylvania 5687 and 7044. There is also a French version of the 5687, manufactured by Thomson CSF. While I think it is a fine tube, it hasn't spent much time in my amp...

The E182CC/7199 was manufactured solely by European Philips, in their Heerlen, Holland, factory during the late 1950's and through the 1960's, and after Heerlen was shut down, production was relocated to their Amperex factory in Long Island, New York. In my opinion, the sonics of these tubes are very similar to the 6922/E88CC manufactured by Philips in the same factories. And since these are typically less expensive, they are a good buy if your amp can use them.

A pair of 1958 Heerlen-made 7199, pinched-waist, I picked up cheap.

 

I think I've gotten an overall perspective. I guess the tube market is indeed really vast, and it would make sense for their sounds to differ if there are so many variations on the market. So far E182CC seems like a really flexible choice. Hmm I am guessing there are "bad" products on ebay as well, since those I found on ebay EU seem like...totally different from your illustration. I'm really not experienced with their technical data, so I find it really hard to interpret them in any way. I have to be really careful when choosing anything as it might turn out to be incompatible with the amp, the only thing I can use is its manual, which is most likely how I'll be able to check if they work with it. Do you think you could point me in the right direction for learning about tube rolling ? I.e. if you'd have any good source/links with guides, starting right with the basics (like I'm 5, preferably, maybe could push it to 8 since I've done a few engineering courses). I can't really seem to get a grasp on how they can synergize with certain amps based on their spec sheets (voltage output/impedance).

Also, thanks for the explanatory post !

P.S.: do you have any review of your modded HD700s ? I'm definitely interested in how they pair with certain tubes , so it would be great to read.

 

In my experience, datasheet parameters, such as voltage output and impedance, are of no use in trying to decide if a tube will sound good in your amp. Again, in my experience, the only way to know is to give them a try. I might add that most of the tubes we currently use for audio were not designed for audio. For example, 6SN7s were designed for use in radar systems and later adapted for use as video amplifiers in television. And it may well be that a tube that excelled as a video amplifier might not sound all that good when used as an audio amplifier.

However, there are a few items in datasheets that can be useful. Probably the most important thing to consider when looking for new double triodes to roll is heater current. As I recall, you have a Lyr2? Schiit cautions against the use of any tube that draws more than 415mA. If you check the datasheet for a 6N6P, you will see that the heater current is 750mA. So this tube would not be suitable for use in the Lyr2. Further, a 6SN7 draws 600mA. So again, no go. The 5689 and 7044 draw 900mA. No. And the E182CC draws 640mA. So unfortunately, if you are looking for something different to try in the Lyr2, none of these are suitable or safe. (On the other hand, the Lyr1 can provide at least 600mA.)

The next most important thing to consider is the pin-out. The Lyr2 sockets are wired for 6DJ8. If you wish to roll a tube with a different pin-out, it will be necessary to purchase simple pin-adapters in order to properly reroute the pins.

And if you have an OTL, the amplification factor can be important. However, in hybrids, which typically configure the tube stage as cathode followers, the amplification factor apparently makes no difference.

Back to the Lyr2.... For something different, you might want to try ECC804 (also labeled B729 and 6/30L2) and ECC85 (also labeled 6AQ8, B719 and 6L12). Both have the same pinout as the 6DJ8, so no adapter is necessary. I should note that the ECC85 draws 435mA, but in my opinion this is close enough to 415mA that it should not be a concern.

The 2C51/5670/396A draws 350mA but needs a simple pin-adapter. I know that Lyr owners have tried the ECC804 and ECC85, but I don't know that any have tried this tube. Again, it should work fine, but there is no telling how it will sound...

And if you are up to a little DIY, the sub-miniatures, or pencil tubes, might be worth a try. Just solder the leads into a 9-pin socket saver. Here is a Sylvania 7963.





About my HD700s with Tak's mods: Judging only by listening, the midrange is much smoother, that is, the dip around 1 - 2K is gone as is the peak around 5K. They are much more enjoyable. But unfortunately, I have not had the opportunity to compare with the HD600, 650 or 800. However, it is my understanding that Takato will be sending his pair to Tyll and expects that we will see measurements by Christmas.