General Auto Chat

Discussion in 'Cars, Motorcycles, Boats, Airplanes Talk' started by Maxvla, Sep 26, 2015.

  1. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    I'm not buying an electric car any time soon. They are worse for the environment, more expensive, and lack infrastructure support.

    Most look stupid.

    Hybrid is out of the question too. I discussed this with my wife a week ago. She told me a friend traded her hybrid because the battery went bad, and repairs where pretty expensive.

    EDIT: And yes. I may be in the market, but not in a hurry. My cars are 12 and 9 years old.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
  2. dark_energy

    dark_energy Friend

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    E-Pace is said to be one of the best EVs to come out in recent years. If you want a sedan then It is another story.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
  3. Prydz

    Prydz Friend

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    iPace, e-pace and etron is considered a SUV. Atleast over here in Norway. In Norway the infrastructure is there, which is why EVs are so popular. Theres also alot of money to be saved from tax and fuel. Hence why Norway is like one of the top markets for Tesla. Soon to be 40 000 Teslas here
     
  4. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    The concern with EVs is battery disposal. This is an article that addresses this:
    https://www.bloomberg.com/hyperdrive

    However, at some point even reuse might not suffice. It seems lithium handling is not easy:
    https://www.theguardian.com/sustain...s-big-battery-waste-problem-lithium-recycling

    Furthermore, I have friends that have switched to Tesla. And their electric build went through the roof. They dealt with it by partnering with the electric company and installing solar cells which caps their bill (though it's still not cheap). And with that, now we have issues with dealing with solar cells reaching end of life.

    I don't like all Teslas. But I do like the Model S. But the waste due to battery end of life is not encouraging.

    Hybrids tend to have lower quality batteries, which are not guaranteed for 10 years. Replacement is not cheap. And again, we have a problem with the battery disposal.
     
  5. Prydz

    Prydz Friend

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    Yes I dont really see the point of owning a EV in the US.

    I do like that gasoline is getting more popular (atleast in Norway). The gov used to really push diesel cars duo to polution. However, diesel is worse for air quality because of NOx.

    My dad is getting the new BMW X5 xDrive40i in next week or so.
    Cant wait to try it! Fully loaded spec wise. Even starlight, like rolls royce have, which makes sens.
     
  6. dark_energy

    dark_energy Friend

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    EVs need something like Skeleton Tech supercapacitors, but something that has more kWh in them. Super caps are just to feed the big power spikes in acceleration etc, therefore, save batteries which do not need to put out that high instantaneous current. We still need better batteries I suppose.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2019
  7. TwoEars

    TwoEars Friend

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    The reasons for going electric, hybrid or using regular fuels will be different for individual citizens and for society as a whole. It also makes sense that what is best will vary with application and depending on where you live.

    Some considerations to stir the pot:

    A) We will run out of fossil fuels eventually, the estimates are different but nearly all agree that peak oil is at least in this century. And a century might be a long time for a human but on larger scales it's actually an extremely short period of time. So when when we run out of fossil fuels we better be prepared and have the tech ready for solar, wind, water, fusion etc. If not our society will risk getting kicked back to the middle ages, and we might end up plowing our fields with horses and oxen again. Not that that's necessarily a bad lifestyle but at least something to consider. And as the saying goes the best time to fix the roof is when the sun is shining, so likewise we need to figure out all these alternate forms of energy before we run out of fossil fuels. So from society's point of view it makes a lot of sense to push for electric and hybrid tech today rather than tomorrow.

    B) Battery recycling on electric cars is basically a non-issue, or it will be in the near future. Nearly everything can be melted down, separated into basic elements and remade into new batteries. It takes energy to convert an old battery into a new one but if done right very little waste is produced. With access to solar, wind or water power the process can be very clean.

    C) Lithium mining isn't particularly damaging to the environment. The most common way to produce lithium is to go to a salt flat, gather some lithium brine, let the water evaporate and then separate out the lithium from the remains. If done right it can be a pretty clean process and since you'll be in a salt flat it's likely you'll have plenty of solar power available. By comparison oil fracking, or the extraction of shale oil, is immeasurable more damaging to the environment.

    Now, with the above considerations in mind do I think everyone needs to go out and buy an electric car? No, absolutely not. It's not even a good idea. If everyone was to buy a fully electric car as their next car we would have a lithium crisis, a power grid crisis, an electric supply crisis etc. This transition needs to happen slowly and over many decades.

    There are however areas where hybrid or full electric could be very beneficial, like highly populated cities. Consider the smog over Los Angles:

    [​IMG]

    This area, and similar cities around the world, would greatly benefit from rapid conversion to electric and hybrid drive. But if you're living in the Rocky Mountains, clean air all around you and lousy power grid... probably better to stick with that gasoline powered car for the time being. And I don't think you have to feel bad about it either.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
  8. netforce

    netforce MOT: Headphones.com

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    Been eyeing the Model 3 for last few months but not in any particular rush. Thought about the $35k model and then autopilot as an add on. I do a 30 mile commute daily through LA so I would like that autopilot and convenience of charging at home.

    But then hearing the $35k model is gone, and the ordered $35k being software limited in range leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Funny enough today, I had a customer come in with a Model 3 and I told what I thought and he said he feels like he got screwed with all the constant price changes on the Model 3.
     
  9. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    This is utter nonsense.

    The things that are really going to make a difference is a reduction of emissions with industrial (El Lay has a huge port and heavy industries), and commercial transportation. Modern passenger vehicles (petrol, not diesel, with direct injection) are very good on the emissions.

    After Lithium is extracted from the brining process, that's it, right? We just can just pour the lithium chunks or powder into a case inside the Tesla and it works? What you represented is a gross simplification of the battery production process and rather shifting the argument. It's not only about being environmentally friendly, but it's also about the massive amounts of energy required to produce batteries and eventually destroy or recycle them. My bet is that the old first gen Prius batteries will sit around until 2050 at best or be shipped to Africa via boat unless an energy efficient solution is found.

    The fact is, (I can only speak for California where CARB makes its data available), the emissions per capita has been shrinking year after year. Not slightly, but quite a bit over the past few decades. It's not like we aren't working on this stuff already. But this electrical car thing isn't a panacea. Solar and wind won't do it. Do the math behind it. Solar and wind suck at energy produced per unit cost investment.

    There are only three viable solutions, and none of the Greenies will like it:

    1. Go nuclear power (with electrical transmission)
    2. Control population
    3. Reduce commercialism (one iPhone every 5 years, one Tesla every 10 year) .

    I suggest the following pledge for those interested in saving the environment via Green methods:
    1. I vow not to reproduce more than myself and my spouse, but preferably just one.
      1. My spouse and I vow not to reproduce
      2. Either my spouse and I vow to commit suicide, to lower the carbon footprint of this planet. This is will be a worthy suicide.
    2. I vow to not allow any more people into the United States. Once people become Americans or get their greencards, or even if they just live here waiting on their status, they become just like wasteful Americans.
    3. I vow to give 50% of my income to other people like @ultrabike and @purr1n so they can get steep discounts on electric cars and solar panels on the top of their roofs.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
  10. dark_energy

    dark_energy Friend

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    The nuclear option is real and should be considered. I think it has a lot of potential based hobbyist research I did years ago. Next-gen molten salt reactors are hard to design technically because of fast neutrons, which eat up salt fuel contour/reactor materials. Otherwise, they are unlike older nuclear plants(Graphite Moderated Reactor) which can blow up when something fails critically. Molten reactors operate so that when something fails the reaction dies down naturally. First modern molten salt reactors will be running around 2030-2040.



    Edited. Added a few specifics to make it clearer based on the continued discussion below. Was totally wrong about the mainstream nuclear plants, which are not GMRs.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2019
  11. TwoEars

    TwoEars Friend

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    @purr1n

    Well, to be fair I've never been to LA so maybe it was bad example. I wasn't aware it had busy port and a lot of heavy industry. That is definitely a major factor. The overall point is however that electric cars, buses, trucks etc are very good at limiting pollutants inside heavily populated areas. I don't think that point is utter nonsense.

    In Europe there are many major cities which are considering complete diesel bans, or even only allowing electric cars in the city center. And I don't think it's bad idea myself. If you design a city around humans rather than cars it can be a really nice place to live. The US is very focused and dependent on the car as a means of transportation, but visit a city like Amsterdam and everyone rides a bike or takes the buss instead. And in most EU cities public transportation is excellent too. But if you're going to use cars to get around, and you want the cleanest air possible in those cities, then electric is the way to go.

    Then when it comes to electric vs gasoline powered cars, and which is best for the environment overall, we can do life cycle analysis and try to find out. There was a big study done about it in Germany: https://www.adac.de/der-adac/motorw...novation/studie-oekobilanz-pkw-antriebe-2018/

    When the electric car is using "mixed non-renewable energy sources" they are about equal. But if the electric car is using renewable energy sources such as wind, water, solar it jumps ahead significantly. Here's a pic from the LCA at 50.000km.

    [​IMG]

    So at this point in time the electric car isn't better than traditional cars overall when using "dirty electricity". But that might not be the point, the point might be that you're able to move pollution from city centers to a well controlled coal or nuclear power plants where the emissions can be strictly controlled. And as I said we're going to run out of fossil fuels at some point so it's better we dip our toe in this electric car business sooner rather than later. I'm also pro-nuclear if anyone is wondering.

    And as for lithium production taking a lot of energy, well it does. But the process can be made pretty clean and once you have the lithium in circulation in batteries you won't lose much from that circular loop. I don't see the energy requirements for making lithium, or recycling batteries, as a particularly big problem since the plants can easily be placed in deserts and salt flats and powered by solar, or maybe even direct sunlight to some extent. Or if that doesn't cut it we complement with nuclear.

    As for the other stuff about living green, population control etc I completely agree. But that's a whole big other topic which is going to take up 10 pages of auto chat if we start down that path.

    Also, you're not getting any money for solar panels. Nice try though.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
  12. dark_energy

    dark_energy Friend

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    Coal is quite dirty energy. It has quite a lot of nuclear material ppm which goes out of the chimney. Active pollution, but I am not sure how severe it is.. probably quite trivial still. Properly designed and operated nuclear reactors have 0 active pollution. Only nuclear waste, around 95% of the original fuel is unburned in the mainstream fission reactors must be managed and stored. As far as I remember molten salt reactors should burn through most of their nuclear fuel so less waste is left.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2019
  13. TwoEars

    TwoEars Friend

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    @dark_energy

    The leftist greenists in my country are idiots, maybe they are everywhere. They are against nuclear because they don't understand how a properly designed nuclear power plant works, and how safe it is. They are against the expansion of water power because it disrupts the ecosystem, then they are against wind farms because they kill birds and look bad. The only thing they are really pro is solar which really doesn't work in Northern Europe for most of the winter. So then out of necessity we end up importing the dirtiest of the dirty coal electricity from eastern European countries instead... yeah, great job. Real environmentally friendly you are.
     
  14. Kernel Kurtz

    Kernel Kurtz Friend

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    I'm planning to buy a new car in the next year, maybe two. Probably about a 90% chance it will be ICE, perhaps 10% hybrid, and approaching zero for a full on electric. I'm just not seeing what the latter brings to the table other than virtue signalling and maybe a slight reduction in cost of ownership long term, in exchange for having to plug in regularly rather than fill up occasionally. For the most part I think e-cars are mostly geared towards people who think of cars as appliances. I'm sure that will change, but probably not fast enough for my next purchase.
     
  15. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    When people think El Lay, they think Hollywood, but the El Lay area is actually the largest manufacturing center in the USA. People think the largest is the Detroit Metro area, but it isn't (there are still a lot of low-density areas in the Detroit area, and most of Detroit is a ghost town now). I believe El Lay is twice as big as Detroit in terms of manufacturing jobs. As far as manufacturing types, there is metal fabrication (where do you think EC and Schiit get their metal work done?), garments (including poly production which is nasty), furniture, food packaging (Sriracha sauce, which stinks up the hood), bottling, heavy machinery and aerospace (high energy and resource requirements and nasty).

    The smog and pollution are much better now than it was in the 80s (I remember how bad it was then). I not sure the improvement since then can be attributed to better emissions standards. It's more likely the exodus of a lot of manufacturing to China and the mergers of the defense contractors since the end of the Cold War. However, tons of stuff still gets made here. Heck, there is even a suburb of Los Angeles called the City of Industry (like WTF right?) which is like 100% zoned for industry. No one lives there, they just work there making Asian sauces and dumplings. Add to that, the Port of Los Angeles and the Port of Long Beach (separate ports just one mile apart) which together handle near two-thirds of all North America West Coast cargo and almost 40% of all USA cargo. And then realize that the USA does not have a rail infrastructure. All that shit from China is distributed throughout the country on diesel semi-trucks.

    I say nonsense because electrical passenger cars ain't gonna put a huge dent into the smog. And solar and wind won't be able to generate nearly enough BTUs or joules to power El Lay manufacturing. The only way is nuclear.

    As far as nuclear reactors that won't melt down in case of power loss - that is fail safe rather than fail meltdown, they already exist and have existed for decades on US Navy ships. (Obviously, we would want a stable design and one that doesn't melt down in case of battle damage). I love how the "news" makes it out that these things never existed before. The US and France operate many of these PWR type reactors.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
  16. dark_energy

    dark_energy Friend

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    Yes, basically when you have decent EVs with decent batteries and this car actually runs on 80-90% clean energy (nuclear/wind/solar/hydro) then the difference is going to be quite big.

    Let's take an economic gasoline car that burns 8liter/100km ; 30mpg in real life over 200 000km. It will consume 16000 liters of gas which is at least 1 massive truck cistern. Probably more.

    When you have upper-mentioned(my post about batteries) imaginary EV then it will be definitely cleaner, when the batteries do not need to be changed at 200k or they are cheap to produce and do not have big eco-footprint.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
  17. philipmorgan

    philipmorgan Member of the month

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    This thread seems like as good a place as any to ask a weirdly specific question. Some background first.

    My wife was in a nasty car accident in her teens, so she doesn't feel safe in anything that feels lightweight or flimsy. She's into fuel efficiency and got latched onto the idea that diesels are superior her (I don't think it's quite that simple) so we ended up with a 328d.

    We both like the car and we both got addicted to the low end grunt.

    We might be moving to Colorado or Taos of Santa Fe, so something AWD with more ground clearance would be ideal, and our lease is on the 328d up in the Fall.

    Because of other Audi thread I regret overlooking Audis last time so we'll test drive a few. Both my wife and I were like LOLNOPE when we saw the fuel mileage numbers on pretty much every AWD Volvo, but maybe we unfairly dismissed them? We were both like LOLNOPE when we test drove the entry level BMW gas AWD's, both sedans and SUVs. The powerband is so different and they feel dead and soulless compared to the 328d (and to our previous Sportwagen's for that matter).

    Again, something that doesn't feel heavy, solid, *and* with good low end grunt won't work, and something that's top-heavy like a Canyonero won't work for me cause I get nervous in shit like that. A 4-door sedan, SUV, or wagon is most likely to be a fit for us.

    What should we look at?
     
  18. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex SBAF's Imelda Marcos

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    Cx-5 diesel is hitting this year. I've driven the cx-5 with the CX-9 engine (250hp/310lb-ft of torque) and it feels like a sport sedan.

    f'ing phenomenal AWD as well.
     
  19. Prydz

    Prydz Friend

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    Safety = Heavy SUV.
    BMW X5 is great to drive, like most BMWs. And the "new" one you can get with starlight etc, like in a Rolls Royce (BMW owns RR after all), so its super cool! :D
     
  20. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex SBAF's Imelda Marcos

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    We did our test drives in a snowstorm when we first moved to Colorado. The AWD system on the CX-9 was really f'ing intelligent and resulted in less perceived traction loss than the X5.

    Mazda has done a really f'ing awesome job of making vehicles that are perfect for the snow while still nice inside (if you go signature) while still driving well.
     

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