PAP Trio 15 and DIY - Discussion

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by Cakecake, Apr 23, 2018.

  1. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

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    IMO a whizzer is necessary for decent dispersion starting at 3-4" or so. An 8" widebander without a whizzer is madness. I'm not a fan of the FE208Ez, but I haven't heard the Tang Band enough to say that I prefer it.
    Supravox are likely too warm, but better behaved. I haven't heard them yet. With the FE208Ez I'd go for a regular tweeter (not supertweeter).
    I quite liked a speaker based on the L Cao FA8, but again - tweeter (not supertweeter) is necessary. Might as well go for any other good midrange in that case.

    I guess if you can track them down the Moth Cicada seems like one of the best options. The AERs and Voxativs are the only 8" drivers that I've heard that require no supertweeter.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2019
  2. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    @murphythecat

    Moral of the story:

    Don't bother with wide banders unless you have a suitcase of cash to throw at the exotic German or French stuff, are willing to live with frequency response irregularities, or are willing to go non-purist. Of course going non-purist with a high efficiency wide band midrange means you end up with something like the JBL 4698b again.

    The best stuff might be from the past. You mentioned WE / Altec 755. There was a 6.5" from that era which I heard (part of a huge back loaded horn speaker made by Bruce Edgar) which was fantastic.

    Line Magnetic made a LM 755 replica, but no idea if they are any good. AlNiCo and Field Coil version. No idea how they sound.

    Before going down the rabbit hole with suitcases full of cash, may I suggest this (and with the original cheap drivers): https://www.changstar.com/www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,833.0.html
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
  3. Cspirou

    Cspirou They call me Sparky

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    I have fe-108 SOL (16 ohms) with me. Sitting on the shelf right now, so I am going to make cheap baffles based on this recommendation. Specs aren't the same as the 8 ohm version, but from what I read they should be better suited for transmission line and dipoles.
     
  4. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex SBAF's Imelda Marcos

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    If you don't like them, let me know. I've been wanting a pair of my own for a while :)
     
  5. murphythecat

    murphythecat GRU-powered uniformed trumpkin

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    Yeserday I met a local guy, who has had or heard many times the PAP with voxativ, have heard many time the filed coil supravox, had the wood cone voxativ, voxativ 1.6 and some other models, along with various fostez, lowther dx4. he told me he and his friends which are all wideband maniacs have had pretty much all the big name wideband, and they prefer EMs widebanders over everything.
    http://www.emspeaker.com/

    we also talked about the we 755a my dad has, we agreed these are incredible but need a hf and bass unit, so 3 way land. we also discussed about whizzers vs no whizzers. its his opinion that no whizzers sounds best. my experience is also that a whizzer colours the sound. back to square one lol.

    I'm going the big JBL cabaret diy way: I have sitting on my shelf a pair of 15' eminence omega pro 15, the 6.5" 96db efficient mids audax pr170mo drivers. I just need a suitable hf unit, wood and xo. this project will cost me about 700$ to build, so I will try this since im pretty much poor being a student. first order xo at 250hz and 4000khz in 200L cab. My aunt will help me with the cabs build this summer,
     
  6. sphinxvc

    sphinxvc Gear Master (retired)

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    Reminds me of Phy-HP drivers.
     
  7. crazychile

    crazychile Eastern Iowa's Spiciest Pepper

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    I finally assembled the crossovers (thanks to @ultrabike , his Xover design) and fired up everything for the first time this morning. I pulled the Denon AV receiver out and put in an old Rotel preamp and Adcom GFA-535II that could use some tuning up. I'm streaming Tidal into a Yggdrasil A1.

    I used cheap electrolytics in the Xover just to see if I was going in the right direction and it still sounds pretty good. The Heils are fully broken in, but the PAP woofers still barely have an hour on them. As it is now there's nothing that makes me think anything is kinda off . I'll let everything settle in for a week or two before I start messing again. I haven't played with tweeter polarity or placement at all yet. IMG_20190428_084624636.jpg
     
  8. crazychile

    crazychile Eastern Iowa's Spiciest Pepper

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    The crossover is kind of cobbled, but for a proto it works: IMG_20190428_084707801.jpg
     
  9. Cspirou

    Cspirou They call me Sparky

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    I like the liberal use of screw terminals
     
  10. dBel84

    dBel84 Friend

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    I thought this was rather ingenious myself - allows for easy tweaking
     
  11. crazychile

    crazychile Eastern Iowa's Spiciest Pepper

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    I learned that from cracking open several pairs of Klipsch heritage series speakers over the years. If it’s good enough for PWK, it’ll probably work well enough for me.

    No gold plated shizzle, and I went full on generic 14ga. No audio nervousa with this one.
     
  12. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    It looks fantastic! Very happy it does not sound off. In the design, it seemed that the tweeter had to be connected in negative polarity relative to the woofers, but depending on the final location of the tweeters that may change.
     
  13. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    @crazychile, I did not see the 0.05 mH tweeter inductor, and it seems you used 22 ohm resistors. The 0.2 ohm in the diagram should only represent the resistance of the inductors, and should not be installed.

    If they are 0.2 ohms they may not do much wrong (can leave perhaps w/o issue). But if they are 22 ohms, they can attenuate the woofers quite a bit.

    Let me know if something is off and if I can help.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2019
  14. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Very cool. I didn't know those Audax drivers were still available. As for the tweeters, maybe Beyma CP-25 butt cheeks?

    Xover points look good. I wonder if you can pull off the minimal thing a la A26 / 4698b?
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2019
  15. Vtory

    Vtory Audiophile™

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    Can anybody say something about using pap trio -- or ob speakers with large woofers in general -- in small rooms? In terms of distance to front and side walls, without putting bass traps or such absorbing room treatments (except curtains).

    In my experience with maggie (cheaper one) long ago, distances to front wall and toe-in (along with other placement factors) mattered a lot. It was not small-room friendly to me.

    Thought ob a kinda similar dipole speaker.. but it seems that some people use them in smaller space than I assumed. So.. a bit confused. lol

    PS. What I really want to know is the least distance to the wall.. having limited control about speaker placements.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2019
  16. crazychile

    crazychile Eastern Iowa's Spiciest Pepper

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    The tweeter inductor is there, but you can’t see it in the picture because it’s to the far left and visually obscured by the frame. The resistors are .22 ohm, which I figured was close enough.
    When I get around to fine tuning, I can try removing those resistors to see what happens.
     
  17. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Just remove those 0.22-ohm resistors. They are not needed and are bad. They were in the schematic to model the inherent DC resistance of the inductors.
     
  18. crazychile

    crazychile Eastern Iowa's Spiciest Pepper

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    With Maggie’s, sometimes moving the panels a fraction of an inch (for toe in), can make a difference between pretty good vs. spot on. The forward / back placement is what dials in the bass and the depth of the soundstage. I’m not getting the feeling that the PAPs are quite that sensitive to placement. If you look in my photo, I don’t have unlimited options for placement yet I don’t think getting these set up to satisfaction is going to be an issue.

    I have a pair of MMGs that have been boxed up for a few years. Some day I’ll need to set them up again to refresh my memory.
     
  19. crazychile

    crazychile Eastern Iowa's Spiciest Pepper

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    Also the Heil tweeters have blue and purple wires coming out of them but I’ve never seen any info as to which is + or -, so right now I don’t know if I have them wired in phase or out. I’ll swap them at some point.
     
  20. jmpsmash

    jmpsmash Acquaintance

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    I read that it is blue (+) and brown (-)

    I also got a Heil AMT. whipped up a simple crossover and loving the sound! the clarity and soundstage, so 3 dimensional.
     

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