Nearfields for audiophile listening?

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by sashafuckinggrey, Feb 27, 2016.

  1. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

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    Any chance you'll pull these out and listen in a midfield-ish setup and less desktop nearfield?
     
  2. yunie_

    yunie_ Acquaintance

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    My goodness. That seductive piece of wood makes me wanna lick it.

    I have a feeling that the s400 may not satisfy me with its mid range especially since I'm using BBC monitors as well. And I have issue on whether the nearfield listening distance will affect integration.

    Seems like your assessment so far is what I thought it may be.
     
  3. yunie_

    yunie_ Acquaintance

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    just curious, does your REL T7i subwoofer blends in well with your p3esr? I heard LS3/5a speakers are hard to pair with subwoofers
     
  4. Metro

    Metro Friend

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    Unfortunately I have very limited space in my tiny house in the city. My work desk is in my small living room and already taking up its share of space.

    I thought I had the REL and P3ESR sounding very good together — until I heard the S400 and what seamless bass extension is supposed to sound like. I had set the REL crossover low to keep it from interfering with the P3ESR, but there is a bass gap that needs to be filled in. To do it properly, I'll have to raise the crossover until it overlaps the P3ESR, and I'm sure it will be hard to get the blending right.

    P3ESR's mid-range is exceptional and I agree that it's hard to give up. On the other hand, someone going from S400 to P3ESR would have a hard time giving up bass extension and dynamics. Unfortunately we have to choose where to compromise.
     
  5. Riotvan

    Riotvan Snoofer in the Woofer

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    Getting good integration while using the natural roll off from the mains is hard and will probably never sound as good as using a proper HPF on the mains as well as a LPF on the sub. Time alignment is important as well. I've messed with it for ages and couldn't get it right until i got a proper crossover in place.
    Also made sure the driver integration is better using Dirac, it does impulse response correction among other things but i also put the drivers on the same plane(my monitors are stacked on top of the subs). Bass is now seamless down to 25Hz and very smooth at the listening position.
     
  6. yunie_

    yunie_ Acquaintance

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    You are right. I remember when I switch from atc scm 11 to p3esr a few years back, the first thing that strikes me is how sweet and amazing the mid range is, then the sudden realisation that the bass is missing, and the soundstage sort of collasp. I sold the p3esr shortly after.

    Do post your review after more hours burning in!
     
  7. murphythecat

    murphythecat GRU-powered uniformed trumpkin

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    yeah, the REL are also tricky.
    my measurements showed that at the lowest setting on the rel, they actually start to roll off at about 50hz and are -3db at 60hz. the lowest min setting was the best setting with my P3esr at the time.

    if you want the p3esr magic + bass, you have to go the shl5/c7es3/m30 way
     
  8. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    Odd because according to Umik/REW for me, I’m able to get my T7i to have a pretty steep slope after 40hz or so I thought. Could be my room, I’ll have to play with it more, but I’m actually able to add about 5-10Hz to the bottom of the Buchardts in my room according to the measurements.

    Anyhow I do agree sub integration is hard and no guarantee of overall great bass. It’s not just about getting the frequency and time alignment right, it’s also the forcefullness and speed and character of the bass in the speaker vs the sub as well. Unless you crossover really high (which starts to defeat the point) and even then, the midbass won’t sound like the sub bass character - it doesn’t sound coherent. You won’t be able to equal the sound of the S400 bass with a P3ESR+sub, the P3ESR just won’t have the same quality of midbass. But its still better than no sub.

    I was telling @murphythecat over PM actually not too long ago, pretty much what @Metro is saying - I wished I could put the Grahams together with the Buchardts, just for the bottom end and midbass of the Buchardts.

    @yotacowboy ill be posting some impressions of the regular (plain-Jane edition) of the Buchardt S400 at some point soon hopefully over in the bookshelf thread. I sit midfield around 7.5ft or so.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2020
  9. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    Subs mostly suck. Just get a bigger speaker. You might have to sacrifice the midrange of a smaller woofer two way, most three ways sound overdamped in comparison but more even, but you get the bass and openness. This doesn't matter as much in nearfield once you get out of the "BOXY CRAP TERRITORY" (think JBL 305, KRK 4-5", Neumanns, questeds smaller than 8", Ns10, and other smaller yamahas) but it matters a lot for eveyrthing more than 1.5m back or so. Midrange detail ain't shit if it can't get loud or get the bass level even at reference or has shit power handling and cooks itself. Transients suck ass on these cheapo chinese made babydick monitors. You have to learn them like they're an NS f'ing 10 to make shit sound good on other systems. The reason they're used is stuff that only sounds "okay but a bit indistinct" on a bigger speaker might totally collapse on a JBL 305 or NS10. They might rip your head off but they work.

    Good big beerfields: HS8 (clinical but cheap), A77X, KRK V8 S4, Quested 8", Dyn 15, Barefoots, ATC SCM 50, etc. A lot of three way "nearfields" really are nearfields and have shit power handling further back without subs like the Dynaudio 48, Neumann 310, and ATC 25. Yeah they extend but not at any reasonable volume. Bigger, better three way stuff won't blend. Don't believe manufacturer specs. Size does matter. A lot of other stuff doesn't blend up close. Ain't no way a KH120 hangs with an HS8. Who cares about price and Yamaha being dry as a nun's crotch. You're not mixing on this shit. It doesn't have to fall apart with bad mixes and masters like an NS10, small krk, HS8, or Proac 100. Get stuff that sounds good.
     
  10. murphythecat

    murphythecat GRU-powered uniformed trumpkin

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    the rel t2, t5 and t5i all at the min level setting only started to roll off around 50hz. maybe the rel t7i is different.

    I do think the rel added something to the p3esr but like you say it doesnt do anything for the lack of midbass, the rel only adds extension and imo the p3esr problem is not the extension but just the bass itself.
     
  11. FeddyLost

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    It depends on sub realisation actually.
    If you have something like Rythmik L22 or even FM8 instead of kilowatt sub with ultra-low Fs frying pan driver, you can get decent speed and integration, but most probably you'll end with 2.2 system if you don't stay in really NEAR field like 1 m listening distance or less ..
    Overloading of any properly designed nearfield speaker in NEAR field is barely possible, because your ears will bleed before you get real distortion. For example, I can't stand 90 Db(c) in 70 cm triangle, because it's just uncomfortable.
     
  12. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    You have no experience with what you’re talking about and have never USED these for their INTENDED PURPOSE. You’ll have a different timbre crossing over most subs not designed for the speaker. Sure if you’re using some shitty heavy polypropylene woofer hifi “bookshelf” you’ll probably be fine with subs but remember most modern nearfields not from guitar center are using very special paper or super lightweight synthetic materials like Kevlar or carbon fibers. You can’t integrate them easily and it’s more about how the speaker REACTS to bass more than getting it low with a cheap measurement mic. You don’t want shitty one note lofi bass.

    Any significant amount of bass content will cause a small nearfield, porter or sealed, to thermally compress, distort, and shit the bed. See the NS10m and Proac 100. The same is true of the 5” JBLs and KRKs and Neumanns. It is very easy to cook the woofers and shitty underpowered plate amps even with built in limiters.

    You can also cook the tweeters and tweeter amps in all cheap crap with noise bursts and high gain guitars. Van Halen, with Eddie hard panned to one wide and the guitar reverb to the other, will mess up your stereo image. Now this is happening all the time with your typical small monitor. It’s just harder to notice on more symmetrically panned recordings.

    Now as for pretentious audiophiles boldly claiming that they won’t use no cheap plateamps, almost all of the amps they are using on “bookshelves” are underpowered crap whose distortion at reference volumes will wreck the drivers. Most of them are using stuff far worse than a plate amp into passive crossovers that lead to power loss and phase issues so the amp has to be driven harder, distorting more. There’s a reasons pros use 500W modded Adcom amps and the incredibly beefy ATC 300W dual mono on typical 6.5-8” woofer inefficient passive monitors regardless of whatever the hell the manufacturer says. Then only YOU can wreck the drivers, not your amp.

    90 dB ain’t shit. Sometimes you gotta crank it. Instruments being recorded are LOUD! Get less nasty speakers.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2020
  13. FeddyLost

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    Sorry, I'm not a sound engineer or any professional working creator, but I've used nearfields in near field and subwoofer augmentation of different kinds at different crossover frequencies. Sometimes it's very listenable ... from single given place in room at least.
    And anyway, we're in thread about audiophile listening...

    I've tried this with small BR speakers, so i can't tell for any given case, but ...
    I'm not sure that it's correct to discuss about timbre if we play something with decent sealed sub instead just bass reflex port at 5" speakers. Air pumping barely have any timbre at all.
    And if we cross with steep slope around or below 80 hz there's not much harmonics left.
    Maybe such setup is problematic for proper mastering of acoustic double bass, but for consumer listening it might be lesser evil.

    That's why I used ear plugs at metal concerts and any reps I've been.
    There are very well known safety regulations about SPL and usually small speakers start to distort even before.
    Anyway, 90 db(c) rms (just turning volume and looking at spl meter while track is playing) at listening point is too much for me even without speaker distortion. Especially when it's nearfield and sound energy in room don't contribute much.

    I'm fine with those I have (few different sets).
    Maybe once i'll buy something significantly better, but currently it's economically unreasonable and basically impossible.

    Your advice about getting something bigger is not universal, and something one just have to decide between 3-way KRKs and something much smaller for same price. And after that upgrade with sub (or 2) might be easier than total speakers' exchange, especially if there's no better "same field" speakers from same company.
     
  14. seamon

    seamon Acquaintance

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    Hey guys! Kinda interested in the discussion. I was looking for the perfect monitors for ultra near field (2-3ft) and was about to buy Amphions(because of GS hype) but then came across the Kef LS50 Pimp to perform on my pair.

    Idk if yall are aware of this mod:
    Here are the details.
    Pics of my mod.

    This completely changes the midrange imo.
     
  15. FeddyLost

    FeddyLost New

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    Passive ? For what purpose? Studio work or just hi-fi?

    I'd not try this without free crossover components.
    If you look at graphs, you'll see significant rise of distortions in presence region, and it's not euphonic 2nd, it's nasty 3rd.
    It might be very uncomfortable to listen this for long time in near field, depending on your ears.

    Amphions are ok, but they like power. If you can provide it, they might be very nice, neutral and dynamic. Anyway, no hype can justify purchase instead your own ears.
     
  16. seamon

    seamon Acquaintance

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    A little bit of both honestly.

    This sounds very good nearfield tbh.
     
  17. FeddyLost

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    This = LS50 crossover upgrade?
    So, if you already heard it without any troubles, maybe it's a good solution.
    I've changed cheap components in speakers, but never redesigned them completely.
     
  18. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    STOP BUYING CHEAP CRAP. The bigger speakers are not that much worse beyond bottom barrel stuff. The moment you hit even Yamaha build quality, BIGGER IS BETTER until it truly gets too big for your use (the V6 and SCM 50 are better than the V8 and huge ATCs respectively for nearfield for reasons obvious upon hearing them) when the woofer starts beaming like crazy or there's massive upper mid suckout. If you're thinking about KRKs and don't want small boxy crap, save for the V line. You have to turn up crap more to hear stuff because it lacks detail and it's harsher the more you turn it up because everything about guitar center powered monitors not the hs8 or a7x starts distorting or resonating like hell at higher volumes.

    Nobody wants shitty one note bass except for home theater guys who want the tank in saving private ryan to tickle their balls and old fart audiophiles that use fart rocket ported tower speakers or stick subs on a Harbeth. Unfortunately most consumer speakers and cheapo subs just provide shitty one note bass that's less differentiated than the bass on a boxy JBL 305.

    Audiophiles are even more detail and presentation focused than sound guys. Sound guys will learn a crappy small speaker that is reactive with it's nastiness. A typical 5 inch monitor doesn't have the cab volume for midrange transients. So you can play it on some big 2 way hifi speaker and the midrange will be more recessed but transients will jump out more. The translation isn't 1:1. You have to learn how it translates and check all the time. It's not as good as bigger two ways.

    There's a reason the best sounding two way true nearfield monitors (not some 8" woofer that beams 1m away and has suckout but more pleasant further back) are usually MASSIVE 6-7" woofer two-ways for their size that cannot really fit on a computer or home office desk. They're for stands and console bridges and do not really behave like hi-fi bookshelves. The ATC SCM 20ASL, Dynaudio BM6a, KRK 6-7" higher end stuff all sound great and translate midrange extremely well when learned. The cheapest things you can buy everywhere that does so is the HS8, which is about the same size and "flatter" than the A7x, which also sounds great but has more of a learning curve. You see these everywhere. They translate way more effortlessly than some tiny shit that has to be referenced back and forth on a car or bigger system or some too big thing tuned to sound good with black holes in the response like the BM15 and a lot of bigger 2 way Genelecs. They also sound way better.

    The port has a timbre. The air moves through the port in a specific way. Every ported speaker and sub has a specific low end timbre. You're much better off buying a specific sub desigened for use with the monitor itself much of the time that will keep the timbre intact. The JBL 305 sounds better with the JBL sub than better subs. It is a more cohesive presentation.

    Cohesion is the reason you don't see passive monitors much anymore like NS10, Proacs, old passive KRKs, or the passive Questeds. Their use is dying off with every blown driver. Pairing the amp is a task in and of itself that is often taken care of by the active monitor manufacturer. Then you must consider that you better be getting some pro amp with a built in limiter or solder fuses into your passive speaker to not blow it up. The same is true with all of these subs. What's common is to use the paired sub to fill in the response at the listening position if there's a null or something or to use the sub to impress bass loving clients or tune a rolled off distorted sine wave for hip hop and modern pop basslines.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2020
  19. FeddyLost

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    This opinion is very useful in case of professional in studio, but there's a lot of different situations that people have to .. plug somehow ... with nearfields. And some details you've omitted.

    Actually I've always tried to buy best that I can afford. Otherwise I'd stay with something consumer forever.

    But if you look at prices, often adding "nameless" sub is much cheaper than going up in same vendor's line. Especially if you don't need overloading power reserves and real transients (like usual consumer) and allover SPL is relatively low.

    Maybe I'm wrong, but in case of KH120 "timbre of port" is something around -30Db THD at 90 Db SPL. And that's just 50 Hz, not mention group delay,
    So, 12" CB sub might be useful if you cross it properly with phase integration.
    There's no information about IMD, but I'm sure it's also will go few times lower ...

    Passive monitors are just lottery. It's not a solution, but just another puzzle. In case of huge impedance dips and weak amp you don't have even FR that you expected.
    I'm not a fan of another variable in equation. Of course, if you have a lot of time and money, you can find out better combo, like pumping Focal Utopias with tube triamping, but it's a fairytale for most of us ...
     
  20. Luckbad

    Luckbad Traded in a unicorn for a Corolla

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    Unnecessary update a couple of months on:

    I kept the Dynaudio BM12A pair after trying a few others. They're friggin' awesome. There's a tiny bit of hiss if you listen for it (nothing like cheap monitors). I stopped using correction too. It really didn't do much for these.

    The HEDD Type 07 were the only other pair that I really enjoyed as much as these, they just have a tighter sweet spot and cost me a little more, so these were the winners.

    Sam Ash has a pair for $820 shipped on Reverb. That's a steal if they end up working out, and I'm pretty sure you can return those since they're a retail store.
     

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