DAP discussion thread

Isn‘t the cheaper N8 the N6ii?

 

No.

 

So I caved and got a Fiio M15.

Some stream of consciousness stuffs:

0. Package is surprisingly... barren for a supposed high-end DAP. No screen protector, no case. DAP + cable and that's it. Presentation-wise, I think this is a bit underwhelming.

1. It's... decent for a DAP. Performance is still atrocious like most other DAPs. As if DAP makers can't appreciate decent UI/UX. The included Fiio Music App is littered with controls that don't make any sense. I think they are just trying to put in everything for everybody. A more minimalistic approach is my preference here. The extra controls make the app look more busy than it is. There are far too many screens and controls. Also it's smooth but slow as hell and not very responsive. But then again, this is also a problem for most other DAPs, including the $4K Astell stuffs so I guess I can cut Fiio some slack.

2. The whole system intermittently lags and stutters like a $100 cheap Android phone. Heck, the screen makes it feel even more like a cheap Android device. Color temperature far too cool. Granted, other DAPs are not that much better, but... this is just about average.

3. Pure music mode is like a kiosk mode that puts the Fiio Music app front and center while turning off and preventing all other apps and services to run at all. It's not really another OS layer or anything like that. I honestly don't see any point to this. Why get an Android DAP and not... use Android?

3. People praise the programmable button, but I honestly find it useless. Most of the programmable functions only work with the Fiio Music app. The ones that do work outside don't make sense. Why give me the ability to quickly switch DAP filter but not the ability to quickly switch gain or toggle full-size HP mode? And why default this button to "add this song to my favorite"? I'd think if it's music I'm copying to the device, it should already be "my favorite", but anyways...

4. On to sound. This is a mixed bag for me. The 3.5mm single-ended output sounds better than balanced to me. The DAP is warm, smooth, full and with a healthy/decent amount of air. Going to 4.4 balanced is just like... it's the typical audiophile ultra thin sound that's kind of lifeless. Less bass impact, less body, everything becomes razor thin, and then there's a weird lower treble emphasis. I hear this even with a HD650 so I have to go "WTF". Sound went from "okay, this is nice enough" to "WTF happened?" The DAP loses that warm, full-bodied sound and basically just sounds... flatter. The M11 Pro kind of did this to me as well with the 3.5mm output, but its balanced section calmed down a bit and actually sounded good. IMHO, going from memory, I have to say M15 balanced out is worse than M11 Pro balanced out to me. The extra "power" Fiio is pushing to balanced is honestly not apparent to me at all. It just sounds like the DAP is "reaching" to try and sound louder. In contrast, my GOV2+ is warmer, nicer, fuller, and gives a heck of a lot more bass impact while still sounding more airy. Even when using the M15 as a source.

5. Well, I guess I can praise the volume button. It's nice to have an analog-like nub. I'm not sure if it's fully analog, but it's certainly the nicest volume control I have had in any DAP. I don't have to deal with jumps in volume anymore, and I can just turn it to where I want to. This works very well for highly sensitive IEMs.

So in conclusion, I guess the M15 can be a nice thing to have for IEMs. It's atrocious for full-size headphones, and I guess my GOV2+ is still the better device for that task. I can forgive the other problems and just keep trudging along with the sound quality of the 3.5mm output, but... honestly, it's a bit of a mixed bag. Fiio checked off some critical checkboxes but missed out on quite a few others.

 

Sounds like a regular Fiio product for me. A few hits with some serious misses. The price they are asking for is shit. After the X5 3rd Gen DAP I was like no more Fiio for me. Sick of the standard Chi-Fi weak sauce software.

 

I am pretty happy with the Fiio M9. But then, I live in a time of reduced expectations. And it was $150.

 

I recently downloaded Neutron for my Galaxy S9+ and S4 tab and I love how good it sounds. It's clean, adjustable (crossfeed is a huge plus with headphones) and I'm stunned how well it dissects complex music (the newer Iron Maiden albums usually sound like jumbled jello to me, but all the parts are clear as day now). I'm probably going to look into the Unison upgrades on my Yggdrasil and Bifrost MB and start using those as my main source via USB. But even the lineout from the headphone jack to either my car or a speaker with an aux jack is sweet.

Prior to that, I had used Pi Music Player and the difference in sound is not even close.

I used an Ibasso DX50 with Rockbox, lining out to an external DAC for the longest time. It got the job done and the physical buttons were something I appreciated over time. It finally kicked the bucket after about 6 years of constant abuse (mine was a launch unit, back when I was happy to get something comparable to the DX100 at about 1/4 of the price). I COULD be wrong, but I think it's still one of the only affordable options that can use Rockbox AND lineout to an external DAC.

 

$150 is forgivable on software quirks, but not the $1,299 M15. At that price point it should be close to perfect on software and it slices and dices and makes Boba Tea. Sounds like @Bill-P needs a hug.

 

Yeah......

Actually, I can try to address most of the software hiccups myself. It's still Android. I'm a software engineer. Just gotta... work it a bit more.

1. Performance is what it is, but can be mitigated by tweaking a few things. It still feels like a $100 Android phone, but the UI doesn't jerk as much anymore.

2. Screen excessive blue-ness can be fixed by using a color filter app that draws over the entire screen. There's like a ton of these on the Play Store.

3. Full-screen navigation gestures are buggy (swiping back can inadvertently cause Spotify and some other apps to switch songs) and resource intensive so I installed another app (FluidNG) that has a better implementation that doesn't f**k with other apps. Now it works as expected. Also allowed me to disable extra unnecessary features like... opening the app switcher, because who gives a f**k about switching apps in a DAP??

4. I don't need to play back MQA and many other random formats. FLAC, AAC, MP3 should be enough. Onkyo music player is what I'd choose for these. It is minimal. Tap the app and I'm already staring at the albums or whatever else I want to see. I don't have to tap 2-3 more times just to get to what I want to listen to.

So the M15's saving grace is the fact that it has Android and can be customized. Otherwise this would have promptly gone back already. At least the sound section works well with my gears and preferences. The M11 Pro didn't last past 30 seconds with me. This is much the same, but at least it has Play Store.

P.S.: to be fair, sound is "good enough" for what it is. Better than the $4K A&Ultimate stuff to me. I like how "natural" it sounds, no insane amount of brightness jumps out like these other DAPs that try to sound "clean", "spacious", "soundstage" or whatever. It actually also works... decent as a DAC.

So it's basically a $100 Android phone strapped to a $300 DAC. And maybe like a $100 portable headphone amp. I don't know. Worth $500 - $600 maybe? I'm guessing the price will come down by that much within 6 months given the current reception. You guys can quote me on that.

Oh, and one other saving grace: battery life is pretty good for what it is. Probably a bit above average for an Android device, even.

 

I know you have experience with the software and improving it, but to be honest why you are wasting time on trying to fix the quirks when the stupid thing cost almost $1,300. If the item was like $200-$400 then yeah it make sense to do work to improve the software, but $1,300 can get you a lot of good things in the Hi-Fi world without spending too much time on fixing its flaws. Then again, that's just me. I think a $100 feeling Android phone and selling it for that price is f'ing crazy to me.

Then again, it seems that I am bitching, and I think I am. We should step back one moment and say "Shit, $1,300 can almost get me two Bifrosts, or a DAP with a better OS (Sony)."

 

No, I get what you mean. The thing is... I don't think I'll get a better experience moving to something else.

Sony in particular actually isn't better. I had the ZX2, WM1A, and then the A105 (oh yeah... I guess I can write up about that one some time, I gave it to my brother). Sony stuffs are... let's just say about on par with this. Then again, the ZX2 is on the used market for about $400 now, which I feel is "right". The A105 isn't trying to sell for more than $500, so that's okay too. The WM1A indeed has a minimal interface, but from my own experience, it's not... really a well-performing DAP that's responsive and fast. Battery life is insane though. I just don't quite like the sound quality, but that's subjective as hell.

I'm speaking from the experience of someone who's spoiled by the 90Hz - 120Hz Android phones at $600+ price range, and a long time iPhone user. Performance is subjective, and I'm betting if I were to measure UI performance of the M15, it's not breaking past 30fps most of the time.

But relative to the swathes of DAPs out there, the M15 isn't bad. But then again (too many "buts"!), why expect a $1000+ DAP to just be "on par" with all other DAPs?

Also, Head-fi has been nothing but praise for the "responsiveness" of the M15, so I thought I'd offer a "reality check". In 2020, a device with this level of performance is just "passable", if not "terrible". It matches most other DAPs on the market, and there really isn't anything I've used that is "faster" or "more responsive" but that's not saying much. I don't know why people would be okay with buying a A&Ultima device at $4K and expecting this level of performance to be "wow, so responsive", but then again, maybe that's just me.

Yeah, and as you can tell, I'm bitching. You aren't.

If Fiio is reading this, I'm going to continue to be overly critical of this device and many others, because if I'm paying $500+ for a DAP now, I expect it to outperform my $399 iPhone.

 

Did you considered the Lotoo PAW 6000? I heard after some FW upgrades it is quite good custom OS. Sound quality is on the reference/neturalish side.

Better is going to be pretty subjective as you stated. We shouldn't be talking about Sony DAPs until we are getting at least the ZX300 and up. I love the SQ of the Sony DAPs (both the ZX2 and the WM1A that's on my desk) due to for DAPs I prefer a more warming sound sig for something on the go. My WM1A is super fast on the DAP interface once you upgrade it to the latest FW. I have a 512 GB SD card in it and it's quick to load up anything from DSD to animu .mp3 files.

After years of using DAPs with crappy OSes or using a phone OS like Android that wasn't really design for audio, I'll take a rock solid custom OS any day going forward.

Wow, not even 30fps, is this PC gaming? I will be on the side that if you are selling a DAP that retails for more than $1,000 that it better have a good OS and good enough hardware to handle the software well.

HAHAHAHA, nope yar!

 

Yeah, I did do my research. I actually did try the Lotoo PAW Gold even. Let's just say I'm not really looking for a reference/neutralish sound. Something darker has always been what I'm looking for. Think ZX2, AK120, or even WM1Z.

Well, so... to be fair, the M15 is actually just as fast as my old WM1A. And yeah, it was on firmware 3.0 or whichever. Did a new firmware come out that improved performance even more? I actually really liked the WM1A's interface. Responsiveness was okay. It just ran out of power so fast, some of my songs felt strained as they reached max volume easily. And also I couldn't stream to it. But yeah, the WM1A was good.

The thing is... WM1A was not made in 2020 or 2019, so... I'm okay with it not reaching ultra smoothness and responsiveness. Also battery life rocks with the WM1A so whatever.

I can't make the same concessions for the M15.

Haha, I'm actually okay with 20 or even 30fps for gaming. Animal Crossing doesn't need 120fps.

But yeah... I don't know. Maybe the Exynos 7872 just sucks that much, and Samsung should just shutter its own processor business to go with Qualcomm's Snapdragon or whatever.

We really need another Zoom this weekend, brother!

 

Fully understandable, you aren't @brencho. The PAW stuff would make him jizz, but don't quote me on that. I still want to try it one of these days, but I dunno when that will happen.

I think it is on FW 3.1 that improves Bluetooth. I think the WM1A is fast, the fastest one that I ever used. Who knows, half the time I'm drinking alcohol when listening to music so what do I know.

Eww, Animal Crossing. Could be the SOC, but I don't think it is that much when I think of how the OS was designed. You know more about this than I do.

Next weekend, check thread you know.

 

I'm one of the prime representatives of the warm poo collective. I think membership is kind of a lifetime thing. But anyways... yeah, for us, the DAP game is a little harder to play.

It is. Turning off or speeding up animations can get the M15 to that level, but... at stock, it's a little sluggish because animations are dragged out. This is entirely up to Fiio to tweak, but I doubt anyone in their company is a UI/UX expert.

Yes, animal crossing!

Android 7 should be fairly efficient. I started programming on Android around 2.3, 3.0/4.0 time. Let's just say it has gone a long way. Actually, since the DAP is on 7, it's in that "sweet spot" where it's not 5 or 6, and not quite 8 or 9. 5 or 6 are antiquated, can't support newer apps. 8 or 9 are desirable but can hamper performance.

Then again, my day job now is to optimize Windows apps so... I'm also just talking out of my arse. Hahahaha

What thread? There is no thread!

 

Don't I wish. Then I would not have to spend all this Money on DAPS and IEMs. Besides who would put a 72 year old on their payroll to bragg about their product's sound quality. You apparently mistook me for some random Rando.

 

Well, so a quick update on the M15. I found out the 4-pin XLR -> 4.4mm adapter I was using had inverted phase. +/- was swapped for both channels. Weird.

So I performed some "surgery" on the cable, and now it gives the right phase. Bass sounds rightly impactful, sound is warmer, and more "focused" and less bright/closed-in/thin than before. It's a pretty stark difference with my HD650. And now I can believe balanced out on the M15 is capable of driving my Sennheisers to at least about the same level as the GOV2+.

TL;DR: now I think the M15 is a very decent portable DAP/DAC/Amp all by itself. Software issues nonwithstanding.

Note to self: always measure random balanced cables from Amazon for phase correctness.

 

I suppose YMO or some other "friend" will slap me down, but there is news in DAP town. iBasso and HiBy are about to launch their TOTL DAPS, the HiBy R8 and the iBasso DX220 MAX. Neither of these DAPS fit in your pocket. They are big boys you set on a table and plug your IEM into.
For good sounding PORTABLE DAPS, the HiBy r3 has been superseded by the R3 Pro and the R3 Pro Sabre. Both are double DAC DAPS that look like the old R3. Two Flavors to choose from for $200 or so each.

 

I only hate when things are actually for sale. Plus personal experiences.

 

I'll wait for the super max gigante.

 

Yeah, why have a DAP that is so big that its not really portable? Maybe carry it around in a briefcase?