The Two Channel Advice Thread

Discussion in 'Advice Threads' started by purr1n, Nov 10, 2016.

  1. lm4der

    lm4der A very good sport - Friend

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    I wanted to report back on my experience moving from an OG Mani to a TC-750 (currently stock PSU, but planning to upgrade it). I don't know if my Mani was somehow out of spec, but it had a very noticeable warm tilt - mid bass bump and rolled highs. Switching to just the stock TC-750 totally cured that problem. Clarity is through the roof, mid bass is correct. My vinyl is singing. In fact it's amazing.

    My TT is the stock Fluance RT85 - It's a belt driven, acryllic platter, with Ortofon 2m Blue cart. Super happy with this setup.
     
  2. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    Moving this here since we’re veering away from Aegir.

    So you’re sort of going very whole hog here with your electronics for a fairly suboptimal speaker setup. Honestly I don’t think you’ll reap the full benefits of some of that gear and throwing your money away to a certain extent.

    You definitely want to know if the LS50s are right for you. But regardless of that, the Schiit gear is all pretty versatile, especially Vidar vs Aegir even if you end up going to with different speakers.

    My advice would be to start with something that’s probably going to be just as good to your ears and setup, but will be much less money (also a smaller footprint) - assuming you don’t want to go to something really budget, try this:
    • Saga +
    • Bifrost 2
    • 1 Vidar
    Saga + I’m betting is just as transparent, if not more so, than Freya +. Also if you don’t know tubes yet, this is a good starter. Also, you don’t need the gain from Freya if you go with Vidar, and you won’t really hear a much, if any, of the tubey spatial qualities from Freya with the speaker placment you’ll have. This makes Freya a waste of money unless you need balanced, which you don’t with a single Vidar which will be TONS of power for virtually any bookshelf speaker. If you wanted to add a second amp later, look at a balanced preamp at that point, but not now.

    Bifrost is a way better choose right now over Gungnir Multibit. GM is getting very long in the tooth and due to be replaced soon. Also the sound quality improvements will be negligible. Bifrost 2 has balanced outputs and is fully upgradable for the future. Also Bifrost RCA outputs sound just as good as the balanced, which is an improvement over Gungnir Multibit. Gungnir Multibit vs Bifrost is again, IMO, throwing money away.

    1 Vidar is a TON of power for virtually any small speaker, and most large ones too, except maybe (maybe) some Magnepans. 2 Vidars would be compete overkill for your setup at the distance you’ll be. Don’t let what you read about Aegir vs Vidar fool you - Vidar is flat out a great amp, and you would almost definitely need 2 Aegirs for the LS50s or other smaller speakers, and I honestly don’t know that you’d hear much of a difference, if any, in your setup. And Vidar has better bass.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2020
  3. yonson

    yonson Facebook Friend

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    I basically have this setup (OG Bifrost MB instead of Bifrost 2) in my office running towers and it has WAY more power than I would ever need and I am VERY happy with it and I highly recommend it...
     
  4. parmiep61

    parmiep61 New

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    This is amazing, thank you so much for taking the time to write all of this out.

    I hear you (and you're getting through to me haha). As a person I naturally am inclined to go all out if I'm going to do something, but to your point it's not necessarily always the wisest decision. I think the dangers of all the reading I've been doing is that I've taken a lot of anecdotal evidence/opinions about the various pieces of gear we're discussing and convinced myself it needs to be X otherwise it won't be as good as what everyone is talking about, when Y is 90% as good or better given my situation and needs.

    So after sleeping on what we had already discussed yesterday + this write up you were kind enough to give me to wake up to this morning, here's where I'm at:

    • Sold on the 1 Vidar approach.
    • Happy to take your word on the Gungnir Multibit v. Bifrost 2 debate, I know they're both supposed to be phenomenal. I think I had just seen more praise for the Gungnir Multibit than the Bifrost 2, but as you said it's long in the tooth so that might be why as it's had more time to be out there.
    • The only piece I'm a bit torn on is the Freya + v. Saga + debate. The Freya + is what really caught my eye with regards to Schiit and what brought me down this rabbit hole in the first place. I'm inclined to think "it's overkill right now but get it to future proof because you won't always be in this spatial situation", but you've given me something to mull over. I have heard tubes before and I know I really like what they do, but your point about not hearing it in the space we're talking about is hard to ignore.
    • Speaker wise my Dad actually texted me this morning after I spoke to him last night about this discussion and reminded me we have some B&W 602 S2s in storage I can leverage. Maybe I go that route first and see what I'm dealing with sound wise in my space and then go from there re: the LS50s (though I worry those will be even less optimal for the situation I'd be putting them into given their design vs. the LS50s but maybe I'm overthinking it).

    Having said all of that, the savings would allow me to also take @Senorx12562 suggestion of setting up a head-fi space in my apartment, which I also experimented with last night using an old pair of DT770s I had. Then I can see what works best.

    Really glad I came to you guys, this has been incredibly helpful.
     
  5. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

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    Not to complicate your life further but there is a whole world out there other than Schiit products. They're immensely popular here and get more airtime but it would be prudent to at least compare to something else before shelling out money.
     
  6. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

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    I dunno about those B&Ws, especially compared to the LS50s. I spent about 2 or 3 years with the DM602 S2s and could never get the high frequency response to not sound peaky. I threw up room treatments, tried tube amplification, cables, etc., and eventually moved on to some Von Schweikert VR-1s. So, going off of memory (i.e., fallible!) and having spent about a week with a friends' LS50s (in a different house and different ancillary chain), I'd say the B&Ws are worth a listen, but I wouldn't expect them to better the LS50. YMMV.
     
  7. RobS

    RobS RobS? More like RobDiarrhea.

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    This.

    I thought Aegir was the best thing since sliced bread and then another amp came along that showed how much mold was on it. But I spent a lot to upgrade so if you have the money, you can do a lot better than Schiit. Audition a bunch of stuff and see what you like the most.

    I got the speakers and amp sorted, now I just agonize over which DAC. Goldilocks still looking for the perfect bed...
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2020
  8. parmiep61

    parmiep61 New

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    Dangerous question to ask for my wallet but what amp ended up doing it for you?

    @yotacowboy Yeah, I didn't expect them to be better or the best fit, more like they're available to me to test so might as well haha. I'm going in with low expectations on that front.
     
  9. Vtory

    Vtory Audiophile™

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    I'd not recommend non-Schiit for beginners for the following reasons.

    1. Most "other than Schiit" gears mid or senior folks like are OOP. Particularly for 2ch gears. Not for LV 1 audiophile in general, in that responsive and useful customer services are barely expectable.
    2. The context here is kinda a first step. We all know it is extremely unlikely to get the "final conclusion" in the first try. Reselling and relevant depreciation should be considered.
    3. Personal tastes/skills change over time unless one already reaches to super high levels. It's practical to assume lower level folks (myself included) not to truly understand what they're doing.

    If something is in production (+ideally direct sale), has a great/approachable customer service, and easy to resell after several months, then concerns listed above may not apply. However, I can't think of any such easily. Particularly when prices also incorporated into the equation.
     
  10. RobS

    RobS RobS? More like RobDiarrhea.

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    Figure out first what speakers you are going with. No point talking amps until then or saying what I like. You might need a beefy amp depending on room size, listening position, decibel level, etc. Don't get me wrong, for the price Aegir is good, is there anything else that gives you a taste of Class A sound at that price point? Maybe a DIY project, I dunno. But it's low in power and won't work in every setup. Maybe two of them can. In my current situation, I don't need a lot of power, so I can swing a low powered class A amp with somewhat efficient speakers.

    The recommendation for Schiit is because it's somewhat low risk and perceived as good value for the money. If you don't like the amp, you can return it. Or if you hang with it for awhile and then you find another amp you like more, you can resell it for not much loss. But if you have thousands of dollars to play with, you're better off looking elsewhere.

    Talking with other audiophiles it's clear finding good amps is hard. You either go vintage and get something restored/modded, or something else in the thousands. On the other hand we have an embarrassment of riches when it comes to DACs, which for me makes deciding on one difficult.
     
  11. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

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    By that logic everyone should start with a full Schiit stack because...reasons.
     
  12. Vtory

    Vtory Audiophile™

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    It's not 'should'. I was talking about risk-minimized safe bets. Like everything in the life, higher risk may result in better/more optimal outcomes. How much risk to take is purely subjective. But from recommenders' perspective, without knowing much about one's risk aversion, I'd adhere to recommending only safe and versatile options, if not optimal. Believing that direction a little better for worst cases.

    It should not necessarily be Schiit -- although it's only Schiit that I can think of for the conditions I described.

    There are other approaches for sure. I barely ask questions about any audio purchases I make. This is because I love to explore unusual paths and am willing to accept any risk following to such. I just apply different (way more conservative) rules when recommending to others.
     
  13. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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  14. monacelli

    monacelli Friend

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    You've got to consider the context of this dude's request. He's asking for gear recommendations for a wildly suboptimal speaker/room configuration with the speakers literally on top of a bookshelf that are for some reason much higher than the listener's ear (45 degree angle). Telling him to go buy an XA25 (or whatever) isn't going to help matters. I agree that there is no reason to restrict yourself to Schiit products, but context matters. This guy just needs a simple setup to get started, and you could do a lot worse than Schiit in that scenario. So my advice to @parmiep61 would be to keep it simple, keep it flexible, and just dip your toe in. Those B&W's would be fine to start out, especially considering they are literally free to you. If you decide you want to upgrade in 6 months, no harm done.
     
  15. RobS

    RobS RobS? More like RobDiarrhea.

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    The Emotiva stuff doesn't inspire confidence either, their crafstmanship is shoddy. A switcher in a power amp? And how many parts does that amplifier need? I like the simpler designs of Schiit amps and they probably sound better too. It's obvious Jason puts more effort into his design than throwing together a ton of parts. I guess we are back to recommending Schiit again lol.

    Sorry I must have missed he already had speakers, I thought he was considering a few options like the LS50. Yeah context matters and he can do worse, sure. Just saying I would start with getting the speakers you like first above everything else. Trying to make bad speakers sound better with good amps/DACs is the wrong way to do it and I wasted time trying to do exactly that.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2020
  16. EagleWings

    EagleWings Friend

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    I owned a Lyr3 and have tried the Mj2, Jot and Magni3. They were either forward sounding or, dry in the mids or, sharp in the treble or, had a small stage. I figured Schiit headphone amps probably are not my cup of tea. Then the EC BW2 arrived and even within the first minute I knew, that this was going to stay with me for a very long time and it has.

    Extrapolating from those experiences, I fear Schiit speaker amps might share the same DNA with their headphone amps. If yes then, I would love something similar to the BW2 in the speaker amp realm. Hard hitting, full bodied mids, slightly warm, smooth treble and a large stage. And the best of all, at a price that doesn’t cost an arm or leg.

    Is there anything like the BW2 in the speaker amp realm?
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2020
  17. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    The problem is finding similar performance as Schiit for a similar price. Magic 8-ball (rarely wrong) says disregard Monoprice. Emotiva may be interesting despite the switcher. Parasound stuff today is so badly gimped at the bottom range (starting at $1500) that even one of their designers disavowed a product.

    It's easy to tell entry-level folks that there is other than Schiit, but I'm often flabbergasted when asked specifically what. "Name a recommended alternative you Porker." (I am going to start challenging people like this). My search for solid-state amps hasn't been easy: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/solid-state-power-amp-adventures.3789/ The good stuff is either extraordinarily expensive, OOP, DIY, used, highly specialized, or a combination thereof.

    Accuphase or Luxman. Rob a bank first.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2020
  18. RobS

    RobS RobS? More like RobDiarrhea.

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    I agree, especially the bold. It's frustrating. I wish Schiit had other serious competition at that price point. I paid like 5x the price of an Aegir to get an upgrade across the board.

    BTW EagleWings, the Aegir definitely doesn't share the same DNA as the Mj2, Jot or Magni 3 (all headamps I don't care for). The single stereo has got some warmth, good treble (surprising for a Schiit amp IMO), body in the mids, but might be too forward with a lack of depth for you. I was not impressed with the soundstage of the Aegir and it wasn't the fault of the DAC.
     
  19. Metro

    Metro Friend

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    They are available, so IMO that's a no brainer. Even if you decide to go straight to the LS50 first, you should still bring in the B&W for comparison. You're in a position where you're trying to discover what you like. You can't do that without actually listening and comparing gear. Have fun with the exploration.
     
  20. monacelli

    monacelli Friend

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    How close are your speakers to the rear wall, out of curiosity? And what was the sensitivity? I've always found placement affects soundstage more than anything else with speakers. Aegir seems like it really needs the right dance partner in order to shine. I wouldn't dream of pairing it with anything under 90 dB/W @1m. I don't know what the hell Herb was talking about in Stereophile pairing Aegir with something like the Harbeth P3ESR (83.5 dB/2.83V/m). Get the heck out of here. I've got some Tekton Lore Reference on order, which have an 8" Eminence woofer with a soft-dome SEAS tweeter. They spec them at 96 dB/W, which I assume means they're probably ~92 dB/W. I like my little Adcom 535, but if it ever craps out I'm hoping Aegir will be a good pairing.
     

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