The Two Channel Advice Thread

Discussion in 'Advice Threads' started by purr1n, Nov 10, 2016.

  1. EagleWings

    EagleWings Friend

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    @purr1n @RobS @monacelli

    Thanks for the feedback gentlemen. It’s really difficult to come by decent amps in India, let alone good ones, unless I pay top dollar. I guess I’ll stick with active speakers for now.

    Aegir is something I would love to try. But my living conditions only allow bookshelves, so it may not work. Besides, the last thing you want in an Indian house, is a space heater.
     
  2. LetMeBeFrank

    LetMeBeFrank Won't tell anyone my name is actually Francis

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    My Emotiva A-150 sounds great. Been using it hard daily for over a year and I have no complaints. Drives my 4ohm 91dB KEFs very well and even pushing 90dB+ at my listening position it barely gets warm.
     
  3. RobS

    RobS RobS? More like RobDiarrhea.

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    I've tried a few speakers at different positions, wanted to see which one worked the best with Aegir. Could never get the soundstage to open up versus previous amps. I also thought the Aegir was working against the layering the Multibit stuff is good at. In contrast, my active monitors really pulled off that sonic hologram the Multibit does where sounds kind of float in a three dimensional space. Kind of hard to explain, you have to hear it and just the way sound projects out from the speakers is really cool. I lost that with Aegir though. Ragnarok 2 might be the way to go for soundstage from reading impressions here.

    I don't get that pairing either from Stereophile. Maybe in nearfield? Saint Panda had the same setup but his criticisms against it read more as being Harbeth issues, cuz those were the same criticisms others have made against those P3s.

    Now if I was in a bigger room, more further back...yeah I don't see Aegir cutting it at the volume I listen to.
     
  4. Vtory

    Vtory Audiophile™

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    If you're fine with random gambling, there's some chance that aliexpress clone amps may meet your needs at a fraction of costs of real giants. Maybe shipping cost to India much lower than to US?

    I'm happy with the Accuphase clone for the exact reasons you listed -- except hard hitting (a little softer than I usually like). The amp fairly resembles vintage authentic accuphase class-a (confirmed by ABing shortly). Pairs very well with Bifrost 2. Downside is its low amplitude out region sounds a little rough by comparison. I like it with SR1a and Elacs but not with very efficient Spatials.

    Anyway, again, this is nearly a gamble. Far from solid or safe bets. Carefully check return policies when you go this route.
     
  5. bixby

    bixby Friend

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    Emotiva must have upped their game if their basx a-150 sounds good. An older predecessor UPA-2 for $300 @ about 100w/ch that I bought 10 years ago sounded like the garbage you would get with an absolute dirt cheap av receiver.
     
  6. LetMeBeFrank

    LetMeBeFrank Won't tell anyone my name is actually Francis

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    Looking at the internals the design is completely different, so I'm not surprised it sounds different. I can't hook my KEFs up to my Sony str-dn1080 but I did hook my Klipsch towers up to the Emotiva, and the difference is pretty obvious. The Emotiva blows the Sony away in musicality.
     
  7. yonson

    yonson Facebook Friend

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    Of those the only one I haven't had is Monoprice...

    I started with an Emotiva XPA 5, then transitioned to Parasound JC1's and an A31 after only a few months, ran them for a little over a year (still use the A31 on my center (did have a Vidar on it as well, but moved it to my office system) and rear surrounds) until the Vidar was released, I've been running Vidars on my mains for almost 3 years now. Are they as good as the JC1's? No, however they are close enough, and not having to put up with 2 giant space heaters in my living room that add another $50+ plus to my electric bill each month is an added bonus!
     
  8. zonto

    zonto Friend

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    I was using a Ragnarok 1.5 on my Maggies. I got some of what you’re looking for in the Ragnarok 2 (my loaner impressions). That certainly meets the value criteria.

    I recently replaced the Ragnarok with a 110-pound monster stereo amp from Coda Technologies in CA (very similar to the 15.5 amp, but with the amplifier channels and new FET input stage of the 16.0 amp). 100W Class A, 150/300W at 8/4 ohms. Coda founders worked at Threshold with Nelson Pass back in the 80s, but decided not to join him at Pass Labs. They utilize FETs on the input stage and high-bandwidth bipolar junction transistors on the output stage. Massive power supplies (mine has a 3 kVA power transformer). Have used for a couple months now and can definitely say it better meets the criteria you asked for, except price of course. Best amp I’ve heard with my Maggies.*

    * Peachtree Nova 125, Primaluna Dialogue Premium HP, Ragnarok 1.5, Ragnarok 2, Hegel H20, Coda 15.0/16.0.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2020
  9. RobS

    RobS RobS? More like RobDiarrhea.

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    That Coda amp is sick dude. 100W of Class A. Wow what a beast. Very clean layout too. Their amps look well designed, my buddy was considering an 8 and integrated. Tell me more about this amp @zonto . Have you heard any Pass Labs amps?
     
  10. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    I recommend looking into the Akitika GT-102. It is $314 US for the kit and $500 US for it pre-assembled. I think it meets the sound characteristics you described as long as your source does as well and your speakers have a relatively benign impedance characteristic (no modern day KEFs that bounce all over the place). Herb Reichert reviewed it in Stereophile.

    I only actually listen to tube amps but chip-amps are legit, if I wasn't a vintage hoarder I would keep a GT-102 for backup.

    for the discussion on the last page my advice to people with very challenging rooms is to not waste money on power amplifiers and modern passive speakers. just buy Vanatoo T0 or T1 and use any digital source including Bluetooth. enjoy until you get a better space.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2020
  11. parmiep61

    parmiep61 New

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    Between you and @Senorx12562, message received, I've decided to go the Bifrost 2/Mjolnir 2 route with headphones and create a head-fi nook, and just ride out my sonos setup in my living room for the time being until I move and can have freedom to design my own space and not be restricted by a furniture layout. It is what it is, but it should be really great regardless!
     
  12. zonto

    zonto Friend

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    Haven’t heard any Pass Labs amps, unfortunately. Terry London (former reviewer at Home Theater Review, now with Stereotimes) mentioned Pass amps in his reviews of the Continuum No. 8 and the 16.0 amps, and preferred the Codas. I have also private messaged a guy on Audiogon that sold his Pass pre and amp in favor of Coda. May come down to MOSFET vs BJT sound to a certain extent, but Pass stuff is a little more blingy and seems like it runs hotter.

    My amp certainly doesn’t run cool, but it’s fine being in a cabinet with an open back and metal grate on the front doors. Isn’t a room heater. This is likely because of the efficiency of the six massive heatsinks. My only other experience with a monster Class A amp was the Plinius SA-103. Was the best amp of the 7-10 or so that I demoed at my local dealer, but that thing was a room heater and needs tons of room around it for ventilation. I’m not kidding. It was on an amp block on the floor and we had to turn the AC up because the room was degrees hotter after listening for a while. The Plinius is also much bigger than the Coda.

    Coda amps have differential DC-coupled XLR inputs and are super quiet. I don’t hear any hiss or buzz from the Maggie tweeter even right up next to it like I did with my former Peachtree (Class D, single ended). Ragnarok was similarly quiet. Noise floor is super low, which is awesome given the output capability of the amp.

    With my Maggies, I’ve noticed the Coda is more resolving than the Ragnarok. Keeps its composure more during busy passages. Easy to listen to the song or follow certain parts if you want. Isn’t “forward” like the Hegel. It has a noticeably wider stage than the Ragnarok and very good lateral imaging.

    I listened to a bunch of old pop punk albums from high school last night. The Coda helped my Maggies portray the midbass kick on Weezer’s Blue Album that I could never get from the Ragnarok. The amp has balls, but its bass isn’t sloppy or overbearing. It is quick and well-damped which is nice. Treble is honest and a little sweet. It does better at the upper end of my volume range than the Ragnarok (which is limited given I share a wall with neighbors and listen at night with a toddler sleeping). Ragnarok would run out of steam and could get a little harsh. Last night average dB range on the iOS NIOSH app was 70-72 dB and the bass was still plenty punchy. On Maggies, at that relatively low volume, that’s quite a feat.

    I’ll probably make a thread about Coda and post more impressions there at some point. I was turned onto Coda only by perusing random Google search results for the Sanders Magtech amplifier. Lots of Maggie users swear by that amp because it pushes 500/900W at 8/4 ohms and it has “Mag” in the name. ;) I’ve also read numerous times (publicly and in PMs) that the Magtech amp could be a little sterile and cold. Turns out that Coda licenses to Sanders the basic circuit of the Magtech amp. It and the Coda Continuum No. 8 and older Continuum models use the same heatsinks (the companies batch order the heatsinks together) and a similar case. Main difference is the Sanders regulated power supply and Sanders seems more focused on voltage output than current output, likely given his electrostatic speaker roots.

    In any event, if your friend is looking at the No. 8 and CSIb, he should just buy the 15.5 on USAM posted today. It also has the 16.0 amplifier channels like my amp. If not, the No. 8 and CSIb have the EXACT same amplifier stage. Coda has confirmed. I was about to buy a CSIb in silver to match my Yggdrasil when the deal on my amp and a new 07x preamp came up from a dealer. Couldn’t pass it up. No. 8 and CSIb each have different bias options:
    • V3: 400/800W into 8/4 ohms, Class A ~8W
    • V2: 250/500W into 8/4 ohms, Class A ~12W
    • V1: 150/300W into 8/4 ohms, Class A ~18W
    Coda recommended V1 to me for the Maggies, and I’m sure they could advise depending on the speaker your friend will be powering. Can also be changed later for labor costs of course.

    Pics of my amp before it shipped to me:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I love it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2020
  13. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Find a used set of JBL powered monitors like this for $250 like this: https://www.proaudiostar.com/2x-jbl-306p-mkii.html

    Pro stuff has switches to adjust baffle step compensation for near-wall or off-wall use. Sell without loss once you are ready to move to better stuff.
     
  14. RobS

    RobS RobS? More like RobDiarrhea.

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    Congrats on the amp @zonto , looks like an elegant Pass circuit, compared to the city of Tokyo aka ABH2. I'll pass that information on regarding the 15.5, thank you.

    Got any other speakers to try the Coda on besides the Maggies?

    LOL. My XA25 dissipates so much heat I can feel it like 8 feet away. Running AC today playing music my room temp was 75F, turned off the AC and within no time shot up to 86F. Heatsinks are scalding hot. It's a wonder those MOSFETs don't just melt.

    If I had no AC it would still be worth every drop of sweat and heat exhaustion.
     
  15. EagleWings

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    @Vtory , I did check out your review on the Accuphase clone. The soft bass may not work out in the long run. It was one of the reasons I sold my Lyr3. Also I have heard some worrying stories of importing amps into India from China. It might not be worth the risk.

    @zonto , Rag2 would have been perfect, but it doesn’t seem to have the stage and mids I am lusting for. The Coda amps are currently out of my budget. But Coda is now on the list that I will look into, when I am ready to afford a more expensive setup. I’ll also check out the other amps you mentioned in the bottom.

    @k4rstar , Akitika G102 seems like a good place to start, given its price. I have come to prefer fully-discrete gear. But if it’s really good, I don’t mind making an exception. DAC will be a Bifrost2. As for speakers, I am still looking.

    Thank you all for your input. I really appreciate it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2020
  16. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    it should pair very very well with a Bifrost 2. if you are only using a single source and don't need a pre-amp you can add on a volume pot to the GT-102 when ordering.

    about discrete, yeah it sounds good on paper and helps us sleep at night. but the chip-amp based GT-102 kind of slayed the Kinki EX-M1 which uses MOSFETs and doesn't sound bad for a class AB amp in its power rating. just like the LME49724 in the Bifrost 2 kind of slays the discrete output stage of the Gungnir Multibit/Yggdrasil when it comes to sounding normal (IMO, YMMV, etc etc). just think of ICs like the LM3886 in the GT-102 as an idiot-proof solid-state circuit shrunken down to fit inside a chip. I think it can sound more like a good tube amplifier than most fully discrete solid-state amps I've heard.

    about speakers, no clue about your budget or taste or past experience but my recommendation for starting with a dedicated two channel system is something cheap and classic like Dynaco A25/A35, KLH or (Large) Advents. there are always people looking to buy these models, they are not expensive, not really that fussy about placement (put them up against the wall if you want) or ancillary equipment and do service most genres of music. oh and they slay KEF LS50s.
     
  17. RobS

    RobS RobS? More like RobDiarrhea.

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    That's interesting, so by "sounding normal" what does that mean? Can you explain within the context of comparing to the Yggdrasil A2, which I am familiar with, to better understand. Also I find the transients the most distinct thing about the Schiit multibit stuff and curious if Bifrost 2 is different.

    This is relevant to two channel for me because I am worried about the Bifrost 2 having a timbral warmth that I don't want to introduce in my system.

    (PS...there is quite the inconsistency with Yggdrasil A2 in my experience. The one I got direct from the factory sounded too warm, while a used unit was closer in the direction of being cooler but was darker. I wonder if the output stage can explain the variance? Someone else reported the same thing with the Gungnir unit. Like the upgraded one to A2 sounded different than one fresh from the factory. Some of the other impressions I've read elsewhere with the same DAC don't correlate with my own, but that could be a matter of different system components in the chain, preferences, etc.)
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2020
  18. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    I should specify I'm talking about the SE outputs. Bifrost SE has less haze, less softness, wider stage compared to Yggdrasil SE. the inability to sound clear and the narrowing of the stage through the SE output is the biggest problem with the Yggdrasil I think. I only ever use single-ended gear, not as a matter of principle but it just happens to be that way. differential signaling is really something for the professional world where electrical isolation is of concern, and until the transistor era was mainly accomplished with transformer coupling. I don't think it has much place in consumer equipment. the ORFAS expects to see XLR connections on expensive gear, regardless of the implications.

    when I owned the Yggdrasil it never sat right with me to run the outputs of a $2,400 DAC into a Jensen or Cinemag transformer (I really don't like the sound of Cinemag transformers). if I knew then what I know about transformers now though I would gladly use some vintage line transformers like these UTC A-20 to avoid the issues with the SE outs.

    [​IMG]

    the Bifrost 2 can be perceived as warmer than the Yggdrasil, it has bolder primary colors. the Yggdrasil and Gungnir Multibit A2 sound like timbres have been scrubbed clean with Tide and Clorox, especially when using USB. a good NOS DAC then is like hand-washing your clothes with non-GMO soaps and air-drying them :)
     
  19. RobS

    RobS RobS? More like RobDiarrhea.

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    Thanks k4.

    I hated the Jensen transformers with either my Convert-2 or Yggdrasil. It was the 1:1 version, but it was to prevent and eliminate hum/buzzing, alleviate EMI and RFI problems, etc. which to me didn't seem like the appropriate transformer to use for audiophile playback. I remember seeing on the data sheet some bass rolloff and some other issues, but I can't find that sheet again (its OOP). That matched what I was hearing regarding the drop off in bass quality with the Jensen's and bloomed the mid-bass which is bad for the HD650s. It sounded way too colored in the rest of the frequency range compared to just using Yggdrasil's SE outputs direct. I just decided it wasn't worth sticking the transformer between the Valhalla 2/HD650 and the DACs, as that headphone combination ain't the clearest anyway. (Convert-2's uber-blackground turned into a gray-bluish hue. Kinda ruined what made the timbre so good with that DAC also)

    But fed a really good source like my RedNet AES I can live with the unfavorable SE outputs. But XLR outputs are far and away superior, it's really not close. Definitely worthy of all the acclaim its received. However the SE outputs veer more in the direction of sounding mid-fi.

    Those Jensens left a bad taste in my mouth regarding transformers and I'm even more wary of getting an autoformer preamp in my speaker setup.

    I might check out the Bifrost 2 and compare with Yggdrasil A2, but I like that the Yggdrasil has two SE outputs, one for my speaker amp and the other for Valhalla 2 so I don't have to unplug shit. Yeah I'm lazy.

    BTW ever seen this Marantz Project D1 beast? 2 x Philips TDA1541A-S2 (Double Crown). One of the last TDA1541 models Marantz made. There's one for sale in Japan. Bet this wipes the floor clean of any new DACs.

    https://www.dutchaudioclassics.nl/marantz_project_d1_d_a_converter/
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2020
  20. EagleWings

    EagleWings Friend

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    Cool. Btw, have you tried their pre-amps by any chance? Given my current situation, I don't have the luxury to be picky about discrete vs chip. As long as it can synergize with and drive the speakers and fit my preference, that's all I could ask for. My budget for the amp+speakers is $3200. Per my estimation, the Akitika amp will end up costing around $800 after the shipping charges and import duty.

    That leaves around $2500 for the speakers. I am looking for efficient bookshelves with 8" or 10" woofer. We don't have abundant choices here and all the good ones are quite overpriced. I will look into the legacy models you mentioned, but they are not available here, so I'd have to import them. Heresy4 would have been ideal, but I tried the Forte3 and I didn't like the horn sound. I think I might like the bigger BBC monitors, but again, way over-priced here. I am also looking into the Seas A26 kit.

    Importing things like speakers and amps into India involves a lot of headache like import duty, RMA, repairs, resale etc. I either have to be super-rich to be able to buy the good stuff domestically or, should be willing to take huge risks. So I am still weighing the benefits against those risks. If all else fails, my fall-back plan is to get a pair of Quested S8R and call it a day.
     

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