SBAF DAC Talk II

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by Maxx134, Jul 22, 2018.

  1. RedLipstick

    RedLipstick Acquaintance

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    I'm looking for an upgrade to the RME-2 FS DAC but not sure which direction to go.

    had:
    -Holo Spring lvl 1
    -Soekris 2541
    -Gungnir MB original
    -RME-2

    For some reason r2r dacs, besides the Gungnir Multibit, I had I felt they were really slow, specially with electric guitars, they all sounded like trapped, it just didn't flow and dynamics weren't that good.

    I like the RME but I feel it's a bit too soft with rock and metal, I wish sometimes for the plates to hit harder and more dynamics, but still don't want a bright dac which I hate. Is there such thing ?

    Should I give a try to the Holo Sping 2 ? I used my old one with usb and not sure if that was what made it sound meh.

    Hoping for suggestions.
     
  2. penguins

    penguins Friend, formerly known as fp627

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    I'd probably post stuff like this in the general or DAC talk thread next time.


    As a whole, it sounds like R2R just isn't for you, which is fine. Still lots of good DS and a few "other" implementations out there. Just keep in mind if you don't already know that anything with AKM chips inside may be hard to get right now.

    Anyways, I just got done with trying the Burl B2. It's not necessarily more dynamic or hard hitting, but it's definitely a more aggressive sound. Not overly bright. Great stage, big enough that I mostly forgot about "headphone staging" for most good recordings. AES in is better than optical and supposedly the streamer is better than AES. Convert 2 may be harder and more dynamic, but it may sound a bit exaggerated to you as it does for many. The Matrix XSP also wasn't bad but it doesn't have a hard hitting sound IMO. There are many others out there, but based on what you mention above, I'd try these 3 first.
     
  3. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    X-Sabre Pro or Convert-2. Hmmm, Burl B2 Bomber.

    Holo won't do it for you based on what you have already tried. RME has that AKM Velvet stuff going on.
     
  4. PTS

    PTS Friend

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    I moved on from the RME ADI-2 with the Prism Callia. I felt it had more weight and texture in the low end, plus better mid range. The ADI-2 is a little sterile and flat sounding, but has nice top end sparkle and air. The Callia doesn't quite have that top end clarity, but I can live with that, and it honestly makes some recordings less fatiguing - especially metal. For me the Callia was a less warm and more detailed Bifrost 2. As always YMMV, depending on what's in your chain.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2021
  5. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    I believe there's one on sale on the forums here as well.
     
  6. Josh83

    Josh83 Friend

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    Based on what you’ve heard and what you say you’re looking for, I second Marv’s X-Sabre Pro recommendation. It doesn’t hit quite as hard as the Yggdrasil, but it’s more dynamic than the RME. It also just out resolves the RME without sacrificing blackground, which is the only area I felt the RME excelled. Filters and other options on the XSP also make notable differences, more so than probably everything besides the NOS option on the RME. Even with the sharp linear phase filter, I don’t really think the XSP is bright. (In fact, I’d say it’s slightly warmer than the Yggdrasil A2, which is definitely not something I thought I’d ever say about a Sabre-based DAC.) But selecting the slow roll-off filter can tame it if it sounds bright to you.

    I think the Forssell MDAC-2a and Berkeley Alpha DAC should be in the mix, too. But both are harder to find, pricier than XSP on the used market, and have less options for tuning than the XSP. However, they might be something to consider if you try the XSP and decide it’s not what you’re looking for.
     
  7. RedLipstick

    RedLipstick Acquaintance

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    I forgot to mention that I heard the Holo Audio Cyan with a focal clear and I really enjoyed the sound, sounded better than my spring. It's quite strange, the main difference was the CD transport.. that's why I wonder if a Spring2 feeding with an pi2e would improve things.

    With velvet you mean the rme flat and too much smoothness sound?

    My main complain with the Gungnir Multibit was that it didn't have enough detail/microdetail and air. Would the Yggdrasil be better in this regard?
     
  8. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Velvet is an AKM term. Basically smooth (to the point of mushy), midrange dip (combining with the prior - overtones and textures thrown into a blender), and hits like a limp-noodle. More evident with the lower end AKM chips and in some cases implementations. RME went with the Velvet sound full force, but they did a good job of it if you want this sound. Good things about Velvet is a lots and lots of air, spaciousness, and detail.

    Yggdrasil A2 is more airy, has more plankton, and more detailed on a macro-detail level than Gungnir MB, especially the OG A1 version.

    Also, be sure you are doing apples to apples. Transport is 25 to 75% the sound of a DAC. Great transports will bring out microdetail, staging, improve blackground and clarity, and have differences in transients, articulation, and control.

    I was thinking you may prefer DS DACs, but if Holo Cyan with a good, or the right transport did it for you, I am not so sure now.
     
  9. Josh83

    Josh83 Friend

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    As Marv said, the Yggdrasil (A1 or A2) absolutely has more detail and air than the Gungnir Multibit. The A1 has a slightly greyer background than the A2 and initially seems airier, but upon closer listening that wasn’t true for me.

    I had the Yggdrasil A2 and XSP together (level matched, but not blind), and found that they’re really, really competitive. The Yggdrasil had a deeper soundstage, but the Matrix pulled a little more microdetail out of recordings. Etc. It’s really about trade offs and what you’re prioritizing. But if it’s detail without “brightness” that you’re looking for, I think the XSP is worth trying.*

    *Note that I haven’t heard the Unison USB, though I experimented with various USB to SPDIF converters when comparing the Yggdrasil and XSP. I didn’t think any fundamentally changed my evaluations, though some were better than the USB inputs, particularly on the Yggdrasil with the Gen5 USB. On that score, it’s worth keeping an eye (or HiFiShark alert) out for an Eitr, Mutec, or Audiophilleo.
     
  10. Ruined

    Ruined HD700 ruined my ear holes

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    Anyone in europe try musical fidelity's new M6Sr DAC yet? This brand a pain to get in the US and right now is only available special order for very high price (basically full price it would cost to import).

    I've really liked the sound of their past DACs but this DAC was produced fully under Pro-Ject ownership and I am wondering if the MF sound signature changed at all. Also skeptical based on the DAC chip they used, though I am hoping with their experience they tuned it well.
     
  11. Walderstorn

    Walderstorn Friend

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    No. I owned 2 of their dacs in the past and the v90 was good and the M1 was meh. I don't think they are up for loaner/reviews much unfortunately.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021
  12. Ruined

    Ruined HD700 ruined my ear holes

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    They are pretty hard to find period, even to buy nevermind loaner.

    I have a soft spot for them because back in the day they were *the* DAC company and I like their sound sig. They had some great relatively recent products like the v90 and MX DAC (the latter of which I currently own).

    Just after the Pro-Ject buyout I am wondering if in their latest M6Sr DAC they are putting in the same care or if it's Pro-Ject influenced, plus they used an ESS chip which are apparently easy to screw up implementation of with all the bad sounding ess I have heard.

    I would just buy it but currently the price is inflated and it's special order on top of it , in the US they are still trying to get rid of the previous m6s dac which had some functionality misfires.
     
  13. RedLipstick

    RedLipstick Acquaintance

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    I though this was an exaggeration on your part but I bought a Pi which I plan to use with pi2 design hat. While it doesn't arrive I installed volumio and connected my RME/Spring2 using usb and damn... That etch,fuzzy, grainess digital sound I always noticed on all my dacs is basically gone. The timing now seems right and there's this feeling of smooth clean well paced sound.

    All this years I have been using usb the wrong way... or I am just more sensitive to this usb nervosa thing than others.
    Should have just started the hobby with a cd player...
     
  14. Ruined

    Ruined HD700 ruined my ear holes

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    Yeah and if you are in a PC environment using something like Jriver with WASAPi makes a huge difference over the stock windows media player with DirectSound.

    There have been some digital media servers that were truly terrible on the transport side, one that comes to mind is xbox360 which had a permanent bass boost like filter applied.
     
  15. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    The only M1s worth messing with are the Bricasti M1 and the M1 Garand.
     
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  16. shotgunshane

    shotgunshane Floridian Falcon

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    Thread unlocked and garbage moved. Consider this a friendly warning.
     
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  17. penguins

    penguins Friend, formerly known as fp627

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    Received a Holo Spring 2 Lvl 2 today (used). Today was mostly a function check to make sure things work, but here are a few initial thoughts. Switching between "OS" and "OS PCM" modes. Streaming from Qobuz. Stellaris as the amp. Take all of the below with a grain of salt as the DAC is still physically cold to the touch after only 4-5 hours of warmup, I'm using what is probably a gimped optical in for now (easier for function check), SE outs (BAL is supposed to be better), and I still have a mild headache from my covid vaccine.

    Sort of the opposite of the Yggdrasil A2 but at about a similar level of performance. Yggdrasil A2 is a little more of a closer to the stage "wall of sound and details here is everything at once". The listener needs to decide what to hone in on or to just listen to EVERYTHING all at once. Spring 2 is more withdrawn and several rows back - I feel like one or two things get presented (but not emphasized or artificially loud) in a song and as the listener I choose if I want to put it all together or not.

    Fixes the slightly slow and almost "mushy" or "undefined" drive of the Spring 1. This is very vague as I don't have a better way of saying it, so if I were to paint this as a visual - using the Spring 2 is like pushing something with a solid rod - it moves like you want it to. Pushing something with the Spring 1 was like pushing it with a flexible mushy rod - it barely goes anywhere.

    Similarly, PRaT is a little better in the Spring2 vs the 1 but not as good vs some of the other DACs I've tried so far. Again, may just be the gimped state I'm using it in right now.

    Technical performance as it is now is very close to but not quite at Yggdrasil level, like if Yggdrasil is a 91, this is a 90 as is, I imagine it could easily by 91 or 92 if I use better inputs, outs, let it warm up, etc. Nothing weird with tonality or timbre so far. Transients could be better - they're still a little undefined and mushed together but overall good. Mids are good. Something in the highs or the bass doesn't get along with the mild headache I have right now, but it's not outright listening fatigue or digital nasties (if anything, I agree with existing feedback that this DAC has a more analog sound). Bass is ever so slightly slappy on some songs which I don't like (not to be confused with slam or heft) but it also has some weight to it.

    There is something slightly un-natural about the sound across many genres. Not like things sound wrong, just that I feel like I'm listening to recordings, not the real thing. Note that many DACs, including others in this same ~$2k-5k price range, are like this for me. Also, imaging is noticeable somehow (i.e. it's not something I normal want to hear, notice, or think about - ideally it just "happens") but nothing majorly wrong. Stage is big enough. Slightly blacker background than the Yggdrasil A2.

    Has a nice holographic charm to the sound without over doing it. This goes really well with the Stellaris.

    Overall, pretty happy with the DAC so far. Enough that I'm curious about the Spring 3 or May now. Will share more in a week or two or when I have time.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2021
  18. dubharmonic

    dubharmonic Friend

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    @penguins IMHO the Spring 2 is at its best in NOS mode. The oversampling implementation diminishes its strengths.
     
  19. penguins

    penguins Friend, formerly known as fp627

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    Thanks for tip. I did try it for 10 seconds on NOS just to make sure the filters work and I didn't have any adverse reaction in that time (I can't say the same for some other filters on some other DACs). Will evaluate NOS once I "actually" set it up, it's warm, and I can seriously listen.

    How long would most of you say warm up is for this? Closer to a few days or more like the Yggdrasil where some people say it's almost 1 week?

    On a completely different note, I still kind of want a 2541 someday eventually for a good deal type of thing. After hearing all the DACs I wanted to hear when I set out on this "find a DAC" journey, it's probably the "least" technically proficient on paper compared to everything else I heard (it's also 1/2 to 1/5 of the price) but I actually found it extremely enjoyable even when compared to all of these other DACs. It definitely has that "magic sparkle".
     
  20. Pharmaboy

    Pharmaboy Friend

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    In the case of 2 DACs, both from Audio GD (DAC-19 & NOS 19), they needed 400-500 hrs burn-in before the sound completely stabilized. That recommendation came from multiple people on the respective threads for those DACs. I thought they must be out of their minds--but they were right.

    Those DACs are luckily outliers. 2-3 other DACs I have or had needed ~150 hours burn-in to get totally down to business.

    Burn-in is controversial, here and elsewhere. I certainly can't explain why DACs seem to require so much burn-in. All I can do is report what I hear...
     

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