Merv's Politically Incorrect Audio Blog

Discussion in 'SBAF Blogs' started by purr1n, Dec 26, 2018.

  1. Stuff Jones

    Stuff Jones Friend

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    ^ It could also be the 78 year old Biden's career record as a middle of the road, politically opportunistic politician.
     
  2. HHS

    HHS Almost "Made"

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    Yes. Funny enough though, being an opportunistic politician means he's probably more open to pushing progressive ideas than someone who is a moderate because of a strongly held ideology.
     
  3. haywood

    haywood Friend

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    It doesn’t hurt that the press outside of Fox News or the like has given Biden the kid gloves treatment. People don’t know about how radical his agenda has been because the mainstream media doesn’t tell them about it. Obama faced far more scrutiny for his much saner agenda.
     
  4. penguins

    penguins Friend, formerly known as fp627

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    ^ I suspect he's getting a pass b/c he made orange man gone.

    Even more amazing is the fact that people are buying into it that he's an OK normal guy or that Trump was "so much worse". Like how much has the daily life of 95%-99% of the population changed if we ignore covid related stuff? Not to mention society is still as screwed as before.
     
  5. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    Been busy last few days @rhythmdevils , just getting to answering your question. Basically it's a 'if it swims and quacks like a duck it's a duck..." sort. HHS explicitly admitted to being blind, to not being able to see "any reason" why {poverty could not be eliminated}. In an important sense reason has come to its limits, and what is left, or rather prior, is a unexamined and unexaminable first principle, in this case about what it means to be human (human nature).

    This is why I use the word faith, because few in our culture are trained well enough in philosophy to understand phrases like "unexaminable first principle" and even "worldview". Socrates, Aristotle, and for that matter any philosopher worth his salt since understood that at the beginning of all reasons, philosophy, and worldview is a religious principle - first principle(s) that the whole apparatus of philosophical reasoning stands upon and depends upon. Importantly these principle(s) can not be examined by the reason which stands upon it. Different worldviews handle this in differing ways, some being the "(un)knowing" of religious revelation, Greek/stoic acceptance of "fate", modern (still very stoic) acceptance of materialism while at the same time an kind of escape into a Cartesian assertion of self, etc.

    For this discussion it is helpful to understand that one of the fundamental characteristics of "progressive" and "conservative" in our modern political and cultural context is this differing and incommensurable intuition and experience (I won't call it an "understanding" because for 99.99% it is not) of what it means to be human. This difference is at this first principle level. Reasoning (and thus dialogue) is really difficult because there is not even a basic agreement about what is being discussed, terms, and the basic "structure" of Man and The Universe. Before you can meaningfully discuss poverty, you have to have a basic agreement on the subject - the human. In other words it is a religious divide.

    Now at this point someone will counter (mostly with intuitive understanding) that Classical Liberalism provides the ground has fixed this religious problem...
     
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  6. HHS

    HHS Almost "Made"

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    I did not "explicitly admit to being blind", I just have not reached the same conclusion that you have that poverty can't be eliminated. That people who disagree with you are blind to reason is just unfounded arrogance on your part
     
  7. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    This is a wonderfully succinct example of the religiousness (is that a word? ;) ) to which I refer! First, you assert there can be no reason why poverty can not be eliminated. Behind this assertion of course is an (largely unexamined) assumption - first principle - about the nature of humanity. You can not see another view (another principle and subsequent reasoning built upon it) as you explicitly admitted. So we can't be having a philosophical dialogue as that requires both parties to see and rationally address the other sides principles and reasoning.

    When rational dialogue fails fundamentally, then the first (and usually last) explanation is that there is something morally wrong with the other side. They must be bad people (so in HHS case I must be "arrogant"). The only thing left to do is to contain, conquer, or perhaps at most "tolerate" their retrograde world view, at least until they are properly converted and see the light so to speak.

    Classical Liberalism is the "Palestinian peace process" of these religious conflicts in our civilization for the last 600 years or so.
     
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  8. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    WhoWhoaWhoa... Isn't plain that poverty could be eliminated? Basic economics and sociology is needed, not angels on a pin head.
     
  9. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    Plain to who? Gene Roddenberry fans? In the history of the world, to most people, cultures, religions, philosophy, and worldviews it was understood that poverty could not be eliminated. Only to a certain kind of modern (and now perhaps "post modern") people is it believed that human nature is such that poverty can be eliminated. Not only this, many of these modern people appear to assume that their worldview is "plainly", categorically true and that there need to be no further debate/reasoning about the nature of man. Mostly this is because the Myth of Progress tells them that any other view, belief, and first principles are retrograde and only a Progressive view of man should be considered. The Myth of Progress is it's own justification, and might be the most anti-philosophical (even anti-rational) worldview ever invented by man.

    One could say (well, I'm saying it) that the Myth of Progress is not only religious in character, but it is a "fundamentalist" religion based simply on the fact that most of its adherents don't even recognize the possibility of possibilities outside of itself. Most (though not all) Christians, Jews, (Islam perhaps?) understand that there are other possible gods and explanations of nature.

    Charles Taylor wrote an (very difficult - the man is chatty) book called "The Secular Age" where he argues that the defining characteristic of modern people is their ability to hold more than one "construal" in reason. I think he was wrong - that is the defining characteristic of most other ages. Our age seems to defined by the belief that Progress has nailed man and nature, there is no further debate or experience to consider, the only thing left to do is practical reason (economics and sociology)...
     
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  10. HHS

    HHS Almost "Made"

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    I think "I don't see any reason such-and-such" can be widely understood to mean that one doesn't agree that the explanations to the contrary they've examined are correct, not that one is literally blind to, unaware of or unable to process through logic or reason the alternate views that exist. Your whole faith argument seems premised on weird semantic assumptions about what I meant in my previous post
     
  11. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Oh, I'm all for eliminating poverty. I hope people don't get me wrong. I just don't know how to do it without consequences to the greater society.

    As for the poor, the wandering homeless on the street, probably there because of mental or drug problems: have any of you guys dealt with friends with substance abuse problems (the mental stuff usually comes along with it)?

    Do you know how much energy is required to sustain people who suffer from addiction? The constant relapses, the worry, the concern, the denial from co-dependents, the denial from family, waiting for them to hit rock bottom so they will finally ask for help?

    Never again, I will never deal with people with addiction (or related mental problems). Well maybe not that exactly. If I get a call from a hospital that they were found in a ditch and the person said they finally wanted help, to get better, then maybe I will show up. And do so only once. No second chances.

    Too much time, resources, money is drained trying to take care of people who cannot or do not want to be helped. The whole thing about needing to hit rock bottom is absolutely true. The problem is that you do not know when rock bottom actually is, and that sometimes rock bottom means perma-coma or death. If I or addicts own families can't take care of them, how can government be expected to?

    The most I'll do today is give 'em a few bucks so they can buy more stuff to temporarily take away their pain. I'm pretty sure we have this in place where food stamps can be traded for cash, which in turn can be used to buy booze or drugs.

    I'd say the USA is a rich country, precisely because the society allows people to be in poverty. Fairly hard-core USA meritocracy can be a insane boon or a total bitch. Keep in mind that a very high percentage of immigrants qualify as poor. Then the next generation of these immigrants do better. Actually, even immigrants who have been in the USA for more than five years already start to do better.

    One proposed solution to eliminate poverty (not mine): let's not allow any more immigrants, or only allow people from non-shithole countries like Norway or Taiwan to come to the USA. (One of the many reasons Taiwan "does not have poverty" is because they do not allow people from shit-hole countries to immigrate there).

    Another: Drug treatment programs instead of incarceration. Third strike = mandated execution (no appeals). I'll support a small tax increase for that, with Warren Buffet and Bill Gates money.

    As for Bezos, the "billions and billions" he has isn't dollars sitting in a bank vault. It's worth tied up in AWS data centers and Amazon warehouse distribution centers which create millions and millions of jobs where people make good money. And no, I don't want to hear people bitching about quotas to pull a certain number of packages per hour. In the South, these warehouse jobs are a much better option than working in a chicken execution factory, and may even allow some to save up and one day start their own business.

    When I'm at the assembly desk, I don't get any special treatment because I am Jason's friend. I'm still expected to crank out at least 150 units per 8 hours. And that's what I expect from myself. If I suck, I lose the job. There are plenty of people in line for it. (Or there will be after Congress' universal income of $3600-$3800 per month to not work expires). And I have it easy because I only do this part time while there are others with second or third factory jobs after their shift is over. And yes, sometimes I wait to finish a tray before taking a pee. And sometimes I skip lunch. All personal choice. I believe in excellence. Excellence for the company that I work for and most of all excellence for myself - which in turn translates into all other aspects of my life.

    FYI: BECAUSE TEXAS DOESN'T HAVE LAWS MANDATING BREAKS, IT MEANS PEOPLE WHO PUNCH IN ON A CLOCK AND SKIP LUNCH/BREAKS CAN GO HOME EARLIER THAN IN CALIFORNIA.

    What is wrong with Americans today? Where's the gumption? Why are we such wusses that we can't eat bitter? Even the rich back in the day like Teddy Bear Roosevelt and his buddies bought horses, guns, and shit to go to war for "fun" where many of them got shot into smithereens. Sure Teddy and his buddies had "better gear" than the foot soldiers, but that dude was a maniac and should have died 100 times.

    And F Gene Roddenberry. (Roddenberry was a creep who banged guest stars in the dressing room and would have been "cancelled" today.) The Federation sounds like a really bad place to live. I would have defected to the Maquis along with Ensign Ro Laren. In retrospect, all the TNG episodes watch like an infomercial for their Brave New World.

    "A lot has changed in three hundred years," said Picard. "People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of "things." We have eliminated hunger, want, the need for possessions." - Jean Luc Picard
    F you Jean Luc.
     
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  12. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    Picard was the embodiment of a mythic asceticism of Progress. Kirk was a real human being with a functional libido and temper. Gene realized such a person could never lead a starship and Federation to the Progressive Promised Land of "the elimination of hunger, want, money, drugs and addiction, prostitution, pedophilia, sadistic snuff films..." and the like. He borrowed a crucial element that is present in just about every other world view but the Myth of Progress - asceticism (something Gandhi understood and practiced for example - I noticed someone quoted him upstream). So Saint Picard could stare down the perfect embodiment of sexual allure (i.e. that women who was bread to be the perfect mate), the perfect Evil Creature/Race/Culture, unrestrained Vulcan emotion, or any other temptation and do the Progressive thing. Number One had a libido and other failings but he and every other human on the ship was contained under the Perfecting Veil of Picard's Holiness.
     
  13. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

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    This thread is too one sided to try to have a discussion I just don’t have the energy. I keep trying and keep coming to the same conclusion that I’d rather just be friends and talk about audio gear.

    a “genuine conservative” is someone who actually independently thinks about the world and comes up with their own opinions and goals and favored policies and those happen to align with less government involvement in our society, less taxes, less social programs to help those in need, etc.

    neo conservatives, Trumpists, “fox newsists”, vote conservative not because of their own views but because they’ve been brainwashed by unbelievable amounts of right wing propaganda in our country. Which no one talks about. Neo conservatism and the other two I mentioned are not real views. They are the rich and super rich hijacking real conservative views and manipulating them into just whatever is best for the super rich and corporations no matter what the cost to the country. Because less government actually means more corporate power and influence. So they can manipulate conservatism into corporate overlord-ism. Ronald Reagan actually raised taxes during his presidency. And he’s the big golden hero of the right. Genuine conservatives are interested in fixing our healthcare system like @purr1n and are open to ideas. Neo conservatives just want insurance companies to make as much money off us as possible. Genuine conservatives are interested in investing in common sense stuff like infrastructure. Neo conservatives just want anything government to fail so corporations have more power. No matter the cost to the country.

    And sometimes the news and the truth are not in line with one party that doesn’t make the news “leftist” it means our country is largely swayed by right wing propaganda making the news seem left of center to people.

    @crenca you are convoluting something very simple. It is absolutely absurd to try to argue that liberal views are “religious” and right wing views are not. They are both views. But since this country is full of right wing propaganda and almost completely lacking any kind of even decent liberal communication from politicians, Neo conservatism is much more like a religion than any other political group in our country. As I said before.

    I’ll briefly describe the right wing propaganda but it’s too complicated and involves too much understanding of linguistics to fully explain and I’m not going to write a manuscript here. But every single day you could make a montage of things GOP politicians have said that day, all repeating the same exact phrases in the same exact way. All dodging the same exact questions in the exact same way. GOP politicians are prepped by think tanks which are essentially advertising agencies for the super rich/corporate agenda. They are always on this message that these think tanks come up with. “Cancel Culture” is one example. “cancel culture” is exactly the same as a branding phrase for a company, its advertising. Which when used to spread misinformation is called propaganda.

    You can not make the same montages of Democrats and certainty not liberals. (The few that there are in DC.) There are rarely catch phrases like this and when there are they usually are not effective. They were come up with by advocacy groups which aren’t nearly as smart as the think tanks of the GOP because there’s no money in it. Or at lest way less.

    Most Democrats are stuck between bowing to corporate interests for the election money and trying to be Democrats so they wind up just saying and doing nothing. They just blab mostly non sensicslly. Democrats all say different things in different ways. They are almost never on any kind of unified message they are all over the place.

    Just one piece of evidence of the prevalence of right wing propaganda and lack of liberal propaganda of any sort. Liberal communication from DC is pathetic. Most Americans could not even define what liberals stand for. I think most of you probably could not. On the other hand, everyone could very quickly list off what the GOP (claim to) stand for. Because their communication is excellent, unified and always on message. And concocted by guys like Donald Draper.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2021
  14. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

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    @Tchoupitoulas yes I believe suffering is inherent to this world. Very few people escape suffering. It takes a lot of mind work. Which most people don’t do at all. Most people suffer pretty profoundly even if they pretend not to. Everyone on this forum is suffering. But I’m a Buddhist really and this is kind of Buddhism 101. But I’m not a blind Buddhist. I’ve spent time questioning it. And can’t find fault in any of it. Which is what good Buddhist teachers encourage.

    I’m not a very “good” Buddhist, that is I don’t practice enough. Mostly due to health problems right now but not completely. And I’m full of desire for audio gear.

    I’m usually hesitant to call myself a Buddhist because I don’t feel worthy of that title. But I don’t know what else to say. “I think the teachings of the Buddha are the wisest I’ve ever come across”. There.
     
  15. gepardcv

    gepardcv Almost "Made"

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    Is that really true? Off the top of my head, most Democrats believe in (1) strong environmental protection rules, (2) strong regulation of financial entities, (3) maximum equality of economic outcomes for the greatest number of people. They seem to be quite good at voting along party lines when this sort of thing comes up.
     
  16. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

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    I was talking about their communication.

    but no I have to disagree. The GOP votes in unison always. The Dems are constantly wrangling with more conservative Democrats and lots of infighting. As it should be in a Democracy when it’s not a fake party driven by propaganda.

    Obama didn’t have the Democratic votes to pass a public option which he campaigned on and which would be soooo much better than the right wing health care reform bill he passed. If the Dems were organized like the GOP all kinds of more liberal policy would get passed that does not.
     
  17. wormcycle

    wormcycle Friend

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    What @crenca said about the religious aspects of progress was clearly visible to the moralists and sociologists 40 years ago, and probably though the history from the beginning of the Enlightenment.
    Christopher Lasch was a progressive in his time now he would probably be crucified on the main gate of The University of Rochester where he was a professor.
    That was the first book I think I read about the social problems of America, it is still on my bookshelf and I reread fragments of it as well and The Revolt of the Elites in the context of what is happening these days.

    [​IMG]
     
  18. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    No different for GOP. Lots of infighting too. They just got rid of Liz Cheney for House leadership because she dared criticized Trump. This was a BIG DEAL if you follow GOP politics. One faction believes in free-trade, another in tariffs. One faction believes in NATO to contain evil, the other doesn't give a shit and is willing to let the world burn down. One faction believes in Trumpism, a smaller faction does not, and the rest are afraid. The GOP is supposed to stand for fiscal responsibility, yet only a small faction walks the talk, the rest (southern Republicans ex-conservative Democrats) love Federal handouts to the states. I'd say the GOP was more unified before Trump - that I can agree with. Not now.

    The Democrats seem fairly simple: slightly left or lefter. I see a shift of the entire Democratic party to the left to accommodate ideas the Squad and Andrew Yang. Basically what's happening now is clearly documented in the New Green Deal manifesto from 2019. These moves have been popular with the people so far. The only Democrat who sticks out is Joe Manchin. He's the sole Democrat who has cock-blocked the more extreme measures.

    States have gone more GOP because they are afraid of the shift left, not because of any unified GOP messaging. Democrats do not matter. Republicans do not matter. They are simply brands. It's the independents and to a lesser extent, the moderates (fewer and fewer) within both parties, who swing the vote.

    New Green Deal Manifesto (House Resolution 109):
    https://www.congress.gov/116/bills/hres109/BILLS-116hres109ih.pdf

    And yes, a ton of GOP secretly are behind the New Green Deal too. They won't vote for it, and they won't publicly say there are some good ideas there, but they are behind it because the government spending will help get them re-elected. Not only is the New Green Deal strong messaging: Biden has been ticking each item on the list. Strong messaging with consistent adherence and actual application. I respect Biden a lot more than Obama for that. Obama was inexperienced, weak, couldn't twist any arms, and thus simply sold-out to big corporations (big banks, big pharma, multinationals, big insurance, China) even when he had the entire Congress behind him.
     
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  19. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

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    yes, I agree with this part. What campaigns call “undecideds”

    the GOP is going through a crisis right now but it’s a rare exception. Mostly because of how radical Trump was and the extreme disaster that was the insurrection which is damning for the GOP and hard to propagandize. They are trying though. And they will soon unify. The same thing happened briefly after Obama was elected and then they quickly unified. It seems the powers that be are choosing to make them the Party of Trump.

    Again though I was talking about messenging and communication. If you look at things by analyzing communication techniques I think it is the most objective way of seeing what is happening.
     
  20. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Yeah. AOC is kind of dimwit when it comes to appealing to independents. The rest of the Squad the Democrats probably muzzled because one of them might say Death to Israel by accident. Feinstein, a voice of reason, has been put into the idiot-room for senility. The Democrats won't say anything out of respect though. Kevin McCarthy is more on point (Danger Will Robinson: Democrats!) to the public than Nancy Pelosi, who seems to shun messaging, any kind of messaging, but looks great with the gavel (I guess that's her messaging). Marjorie Greene does whatever crazy shit she needs to do to appeal to her base, which is pretty significant. Mitch McConnell seems kind of a dufus, but he gets his points across while trying to balance the party. Chuck Schumer comes off as liking the smell of his own farts. He doesn't have to face undecided voters though. Joe Manchin gets a lot of face time, but he's not a real Democrat right?

    You gotta admit Biden is pretty damn good though. He's carrying his party right now. He's speaking lucidly, from the heart, with conviction. Jen Psaki is great too. On point, will twist words around to be a bitch, without resorting to full scale gaslighting like Huckabee Sanders. On the brainer side, Yellen is trying convince the money people that deficits no longer matter, that debt/GDP ratio of 300%, 500%, 1000% are now permissible according latest economic theory. Hmm, not sure that's good messaging to people with a brain or believe in the laws of the universe. Hey at least 70% of Republicans are now behind that idea too.
     
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