Troels Gravesen Faital 3WC-15 and Ellipticor A50-II

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by AdvanTech, Feb 3, 2021.

  1. Wushuliu

    Wushuliu Acquaintance

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    Once tubes are in the mix the matching complexity goes up. Could be the output tubes, could be the output transformers, on and on. The speaker crossover doesn't seem to be overly complex and the impedance appears relatively benign.

    Also, if the 240's own frequency extension dips at the extremes - as it appears it does based on quick googling - then that could potentially be a poor match considering Troels designs for a more laid back sound to begin with and not everyone is a fan of that.
     
  2. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    In my opinion yes and best left to transistor amplification

    sorry but these measurements don't correlate to any sort of reality when it comes to the frequency extension of the amp as it is perceived by ear.
     
  3. Wushuliu

    Wushuliu Acquaintance

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    Which is why I used the word 'potentially'. It is not uncommon for tube amp response to drop in upper and low frequencies, regardless of what your ears tell you. The point is there are more variables to account for that could make for a different sonic presentation when paired with a speaker that already has a more laid back sound. Everyone knows Troels' designs lean towards rolled off top end (unless you are listening direct on axis in this case). The presentation described when combining the MC240 w/ the 3WC isn't surprising.
     
  4. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    The output doesn't see a crossover, it sees an electric load. As seen in the electrical phase/impedance plot, above 20Hz this speaker is very well behaved. Impedance correction circuits make filters look more complex for us, but more simple for the output stage/transformer.

    The LF and HF roll-off's are pretty mild, replicate them via DSP and you probably won't hear a drastic change.
     
  5. Wushuliu

    Wushuliu Acquaintance

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    Maybe not, but it's still cumulative with the 3WC's response which starts to roll off in a similar manner vs, say, the Aegir.
     
  6. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    The MC240 is a soft sounding amp and maybe especially with the Faital 15" which has an Re on the lower side at 5.8-ohms and wide frequency swath where it remains near 5.8-ohms - 40WPC at 0.5%THD may not be enough - relative to what a monster 1000W SS amp can do to grip the driver.

    Just because it says McIntosh and it was from another era doesn't mean it's automagically awesomesauce. It has a good reputation because it's McIntosh (more rabid than Topping fanboys) and because during the era of nasty solid-state amps toward the end of the prior century, people who mostly listen to sparse jazz "rediscovered" the MC240.

    Some people blame bad restorations. Others blame the transformers. At the end of the day, it's like any other piece of gear: finding the right amp to go with the speakers and personal preferences.

    The MC240 may fare better with this setup in monoblock config using the 2-ohm setup.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2021
  7. Wushuliu

    Wushuliu Acquaintance

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    What he said (sorry, like button no longers appears for me - I assume some change in policy since last time I was active).
     
  8. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    don't agree that it's a soft sounding amp. maybe when compared to todays very stiff sounding Williamson clones.
    do agree it needs to be put in the appropriate system, that is a system tuned with other vintage components or at least vintage-friendly components. it will have plenty of snap and extension. it definitely will not perform when driven directly from the variable outputs of a DAC, regardless of what the numbers say.

    the stereo MC amps from the 60s do not sound good in the monoblock configuration.
     
  9. AdvanTech

    AdvanTech Friend

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    Everyone? Some 3WC-15 owners have reported it’s a little hot in the treble. I also agree and have been EQing it a touch to pull it back. I don’t think you can just lump all of his designs into one sound signature.
     
  10. Wushuliu

    Wushuliu Acquaintance

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    Feel free to look at his entire catalog and on and off axis of the 3WC itself. It's not a criticism and I specifically used the word 'leans'. All this is in context to the broader diy speaker world. YMMV etc. I like his designs and followed them for the past 10+ yrs. Enjoy your speakers, they look great.
     
  11. Lemonhead

    Lemonhead New

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    Hello ! I came across your ( Advan Tech ) making looking for someone who made the Faital 3WC-15 speakers.
    I really like how you made the final design.I believe that the inside of the box is also made at a high level.
    I have the opportunity to buy a set of speakers for this project from a man who gave up making whether he bought
    ready-made speakers from another company.I would be very grateful if we could help with some technical questions.
    If you have the ability and will to do so, please contact me at [email protected].

    I will be very brief and precise.

    Best regards - Dubravko
     
  12. AdvanTech

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    Knowing Troels voiced the 3WC-15’s with EAR Yoshino tube gear, I’ve been keeping an eye out for something like a used EAR 890 amp or equivalent online. While happy with the technicalities of my setup, I was wondering if tubes might possibly make my listening sessions more involving. Another SBAF member told me he’d sell me his Allnic T-2000 (upgraded to 25th Anniversary edition w/KT150s), and I’d enjoyed the Allnic A-6000 monoblocks @sphinxvc used to have, so I took him up on the offer.

    The first time I switched mid-woofer and tweeter amplification from my dual mono Aegirs to the Allnic, I was a little disappointed. I felt that my setup had taken a bit of a hit in dynamics, separation, clarity, and macrodetail. Because of these things, I initially thought the Allnic was lesser amp and potentially less resolving. There were certain details like percussive hits, clicks, snaps, etc. that didn’t jump out of the mix like I’d been used to.

    Over time, my brain and ears adjusted to the new, slightly more relaxed, sound. After acclimating, I started to hear what the amp had to offer. I was hearing textural details that I hadn’t heard or noticed before. The smokiness or huskiness of voices were coming out, textures of strings, the air around the sounds coming from instruments. It wasn’t overly vibrant or contrasty, it just existed in a calm yet confident manner. It had the quiet surety of a big dog.

    After a few days, once I was used to the Allnic’s sound, I swapped back to the dual mono Aegirs. They now sounded a bit aggressive, a bit hyper, like they had something to prove. It sounded comparatively strained, even. Yes, that extra touch of dynamics was back, as was perceived clarity/separation, but it didn’t sound as ‘right’. It felt a bit like that small dog that was always barking at anything that moved.

    The Aegirs are a bit more forward than the T-2000. Everything is comparatively a bit more in your face, and so I would find myself listening to the macro details. With the T-2000, no part of the music was saying, “hey, look at me!” and so it was easier to be able to focus on the music as it arrived at your ears in a more cohesive way. Its slightly less aggressive (more natural?) nature opened the door for nuance and subtleties. Microdynamics and microdetail.

    I don’t know how to explain this last point, but the Allnic also seems to impart a subtle touch of velvety sweetness to the music that plays through it. Mixes and sounds I didn’t particularly like with the Aegirs are now enjoyable. It’s not heavy-handed or overly syrupy or rose-tinted. It’s a quite thin layer that I can live with.

    This amp has a pentode/triode switch that I think is interesting. Pentode mode sounds mostly like you’d expect your music to sound like, but triode mode softens and sweetens everything. Everything gets super laidback, lush, and nebulous, and it becomes all about textures instead of transients. I thought the switch might be a kind of gimmick, but it’s actually useful for changing the type of listening session you want, and possibly for specializing in certain genres. My speakers now have two personalities at the flick of a switch.

    The Allnic is probably going to stay in my chain, while my VTV Hypex amp continues to power the 15" woofers. The Allnic sounds like a good match for these speakers.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2021
  13. AdvanTech

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    The more I A/B'd the Aegirs with the T-2000, the more I realized that the Allnic was making music that was more convincing. It was easier to imagine the voices and instruments in front of me. Tone, tone tone. This naturalness kept me coming back to the T-2000, even though it sounded a bit sleepy and laidback. Maybe bit too much silky smoothness.

    I picked up a used Gungnir A2 to try to bring some forwardness and bite back to the overall sound. It's a much cheaper DAC than my Rockna Wavelight, and lacks a little in some technicalities, but the benefits in overall synergy are more than worth the tiny tradeoffs. The stage is pulled up a little, and my speaker drivers seem more awake, again. Plucks, brassiness, percussive thwacks/snaps, etc. pop out of the mix a little more when called for.

    If I had the money, I'd have tried the Wavedream Signature XLR after hearing how Rockna's amps get less laidback the higher up the product line you go, but it's really expensive. The Gungnir A2 will do. It's really interesting how liquid and smooth Rockna's Wavelight is. Perfect for something like my Focal Utopias, which it's now being used for.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2021
  14. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    What about a Yggdrasil? IMO it’s more slammy, dynamic and incisive than Gungnir Multibit A2.
     
  15. AdvanTech

    AdvanTech Friend

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    The Allnic is a bit mid-centric with center stage pushed back, so I wanted to counteract that. I was specifically looking for something more forward, neutral, with more incisivene energy in the upper mids and treble. I have a Goldpoint attenuator on the Hypex amp to the 15s, so I can always adjust low end slam as I like.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2021
  16. AdvanTech

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    A friend came to listen to my rig and brought his Alan Eaton Single Ended Type 45 monoblocks with Tamura transformers and 1.5 watts of sheer brutal power. We didn't expect it to rock the house, but we were curious how they did with somewhat efficient speakers.

    Ignoring bass quality, what surprised us was the fact that it sounded comparatively unrefined, not more spooky realism, not as resolving. There was some texture we hadn't heard before, but it felt more like textural distortion or grain. Not necessarily from the recording. The volume knob was fairly low, too. There was some talk about how it would have been better with red base RCA 6SN7s. Maybe, maybe not, but it didn't take us long to reconnect the Allnic, which was more pleasing, refined through all frequencies, and emotionally engaging.

    I know it's probably not enough power, but I assumed purist SET amps would bring something new to the table (holography, resolution, pixie dust?). In this case, the Allnic T-2000 25th push-pull pentode design seemed to be a couple of tiers above these. I’ll have to hear them on something 100+ dB efficient.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2021
  17. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    @AdvanTech
    You should repeat the experiment but take out the jumpers to the lower binding posts so you're not trying to push the woofers as well.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2021
  18. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    In my old horn setup with 2 x 45 SET per channel amp, I only drove the mids on up from 400Hz. I split the speaker output from the tube amp: one to mids and the other to line level (XLR) inputs of a bass processor and then a solid-state amp for the woofer. Doing it this way carries forth the distortion characteristics of the tube amp to the solid-state amp for best integration. HT folks will laugh at this method however.

    A 45 amp is best with super efficient 6"-8" single driver wide-bander BLHs with no xovers (or two or three parts) in the path. I don't think SET works well for anything with many part crossovers and a big woofer unless you have the right transformer, and even then, it's debatable.

    I'm currently using my big JBLs with the Fisher KX-200 integrated 7591 PP. (Have since moved on from Freya S and Aegir). I haven't compared the Fisher to the EC 2x45 SET yet. I should. I tried an earlier development version of the Studio 300 B without the tertiary winding feedback and on the wrong output tap (8-ohms). There was some magic, but otherwise it was terrible as any magic was masked by mud.

    @AdvanTech: Just catching up. The Allnic looks awesome and at a good price too. The speakers look awesome too. I love the drivers Troels picked out. He really knows his stuff. Glad you finally got the highs to work.

    P.S.

    LOL, you picked up a Gungnir A2. Haha, synergy rules. Especially if it's a bargain.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2021
  19. Boops

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    @AdvanTech was nice enough to invite me over to his place to listen to his 3WC-15s. We spent about an hour or so listening to them being driven by his Allnic amp and it was just an absolute pleasure. The speakers sounded extremely well balanced with good dynamics and all the micro-detail you could want. Extremely technically capable, but in a relaxed, effortless way that made it easy to get absorbed.

    I brought my EC Studio B along so we could try it bi-amped with the Allnic on the 15” woofers. We didn’t have much time with this setup and couldn’t go back and forth so it’s difficult to make definitive observations, but the biamp setup seemed to me to have improved width and depth in the stage. It also sounded smoother with a bit more naturalness especially in the vocals. Raw resolution seemed about equal, but we would have needed more time to say for sure. The Allnic had sharper focus in the details and better dynamics.

    I have Klipsch Forte 3s at home which are an interesting comparison for me. I might still give the Klipschs the edge in dynamics and in communicating the emotion/impact of a performance, but the 3WC-15s are a clear step up in refinement and overall technicalities. Easily worth the price in my view. If I ever move on from my Fortes, I would give these a serious look. I’d be interested to hear Troels's 12” versions too.
     
  20. Riotvan

    Riotvan Snoofer in the Woofer

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    Wish i had the tools and woodworking skills to build one of Troels kits, anyone know of any flatpaks? Guess contacting a local builder is the way.
     

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