ETA Supra Intro / Discussion (Pre-Production)

Discussion in 'Headphones' started by E_Schaaf, Aug 11, 2021.

  1. E_Schaaf

    E_Schaaf MOT: E.T.A Headphones

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    If Genesis is an exploration of the sweet spot between open and closed full-size headphones, ETA Supra sits similarly at the line between a miniaturized open-baffle earspeaker and supra-aural headphone in terms of design. Let’s unpack what I mean:

    In terms of ergonomics, Supra sits on your ears, either with cozy suede donut pads or vintage Yamaha-style ortho pads depending on the driver used. There are several benefits to this approach compared to normal circumaural headphones - less opportunity for reflections (often meaning a more linear response with fewer resonances), more direct funneling of dynamic energy into the ears, with no issues regarding acoustic seal for those who wear glasses and/or masks.

    In terms of the earspeaker-ness, Supra is different from other pinna-coupling designs because the drivers sit at a distance relative to the earpad mount, and are also subtly angled to improve the staging and imaging. Supra does not have a traditional baffle - instead, the driver is suspended in the center of the concentric-cylindrical spider chassis inspired by the designs of large woofers optimized for open baffle loudspeaker use. On Supra, the airflow exits radially to the outside, throttled by two swappable pieces of foam to tune the bass (yes, the foam is taken out of the Gen playbook and is the same exact size). Unlike other supraaural designs which rely on leaky pads to prevent driver flex and achieve the ideal proximity, Supra is airflow-optimized for unprecedented sub-bass and/or linearity for an open back supra-aural headphone.


    upload_2021-8-11_18-39-34.png

    upload_2021-8-11_18-40-6.png

    Here's a comparative measurement for the different airflow filters (there are four options but this is the most extreme difference) using a working prototype. This is about one revision out-dated, but I'll keep posting measurements as we settle on 'done'. 60dB on the Y-axis:

    upload_2021-8-11_18-21-17.png

    Sonically, I'm really hoping Supra will be a heard as a complement to Genesis, with a more spacious, airy, forward sound without the general downslope thru the mids and highs. I'm cooking up some tweaks to flatten the bass without losing extension on the lighter filter too.

    The drivers we're considering using as standard are 32 ohm versions of the Graphene driver from GenG, featuring the N52 magnets once again (measurement above, WIP). They are easily driven by a phone, laptop, or any DAP. We also have a limited quantity of Al/Mg alloy drivers that are otherwise identical in spec and design aside from the diaphragm material. Supra can be made with Peerless too. When the loaner goes out, I'll be sending at least 4 or 5 sets with different foams and drivers so no tweaking will be required, only listening ;)

    Here's a measurement with the Al/Mg driver using Yam pads and the lighter exit filter:

    upload_2021-8-11_18-26-34.png

    Supra is detachable-cable ready (3.5mm sockets). We’re using foldable OEM headbands designed for MDR7506 as you can see below:

    upload_2021-8-11_18-36-12.png

    When folded, it's just a bit bigger than a soda can -

    upload_2021-8-11_18-38-27.png

    For now, we’re in the beta phase of development, meaning that you’ll see impressions trickle in slowly - we’re continuing to figure out the ideal driver modification recipe for best sonics, and have a few aesthetic tweaks left to complete. For now, these will be loaned out privately to those who have a long track record with supra-aural headphone designs. They’ll also be at the meet on August 27 in Pasadena, CA. We have enough drivers and headbands to make about 9 pairs of these in the next couple months. Assuming it's well-received, it'll stay on the ETA roster long-term. As always, thank you @tommytakis for your work to realize this design digitally and help with the printing among innumerous other things :D
     

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    Last edited: Aug 11, 2021
  2. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    Super excited to hear these!
     
  3. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    Lame 32ohm version of the fabulous graphene driver. Booooo!!!

    Would you include an earpad adapter for circumarual pads? GenG Jr.

    Cost?
     
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  4. E_Schaaf

    E_Schaaf MOT: E.T.A Headphones

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    32 ohm version is every bit as good. Just easier to drive. They're supposed to be portable. If you wanted 300 we could do that too, but I don't hear the benefit.

    Earpad adapter was something we tried to do initially but there's no great way to get it to latch in place and hold steady as far as we've tried. Maybe worth more investigation. Would defeat the foldable headband though.

    Completed build price with headband probably around $400-500. I wanted it to be less but drivers are by far the biggest cost and they take almost as long to assemble as GenG.
     
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  5. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    Regarding pros and cons of on-ear pinna-coupled headphones (really only popular are Koss then Grado) what compromises are made going to a more traditional off-set (or properly-set) uncoupled and distanced driver from ear positioning. From padrolling I tend to find the closer the better. You mentioned often smoother response, but I also usually think I here more detail and dynamics.

    So the 300ohm version of the graphene driver in GenG is placebo to satisfy demands of paranoid audiophiles? Lies! I will be needing the full 300ohm.
     
  6. E_Schaaf

    E_Schaaf MOT: E.T.A Headphones

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    It seems there's a bit of a misunderstanding about why Supra uses lower impedance drivers. It's about amp matching and use-case, nothing more. The impedance of the driver has no bearing on how expensive they are to make. 300 ohm drivers are the same price as 32 ohm for us.

    Supra is a portable headphone meant for portable use. I foresee them being most often used with phones, DAPs, laptops, etc. Not so with GenG, which most people have been using with boutique tube amplifiers which often have higher output impedance.

    Just because higher impedance drivers from Senn and Beyer sound better than their low impedance counterparts does not mean that the same is true for every driver in every case. The TH900 driver for example is 25 ohms and arguably one of the most capable dynamic drivers on the market. Utopia drivers aren't high impedance either. Peerless is low impedance. 4 of the 7 people who have heard both Supra and GenG have preferred the sonics of Supra independent of the chain.

    When used on a portable or low powered device, the 32 ohm drivers sound better than the 300 ohm drivers in the same design, and it's as simple as that.

    The suspended baffle / earspeaker-reminiscent design of Supra has a future in a dedicated circumaural headphone for us too, one that's not simply a Supra with an extended pad ring. That will be using higher impedance drivers once again.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2021
  7. E_Schaaf

    E_Schaaf MOT: E.T.A Headphones

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    Koss and Grado drivers are fundamentally unlike ours, because they have a smaller voice coil, much smaller and weaker magnets, and drastically reduced excursion relative to ours given they have no flexing driver surround. They require immediate proximity to achieve decent extension, and you get severe rolloff and bowed mids as you get farther away because all the pressure escapes through the leaky foamy pads. Because we are able to control frontwave pressure release independent of the earpads, we haven't run into such issues.
     
  8. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex SBAF's Imelda Marcos

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    Why do the LTS headphones look like production but these look DIY?
     
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  9. E_Schaaf

    E_Schaaf MOT: E.T.A Headphones

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    Drop both on concrete pavement from 6ft and see which is more durable.
     
  10. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    True. But cmon man!

    Nice. Ive dropped and broken Denon D2000 and Stax Lambda before. Probably more but those were saddest.
     
  11. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    I would opt for 300ohm driver because would not use as a portable. You mean like easy transportable to the office? Non-isolating, geeky looks, and price would make prohibitive imo.

    You’d prefer if TH900 were higher impedance.

    Weak evidence that 32ohm is same or better. Obviously there are other variables to supra.

    Not arguing 32 and 300 cant sound the same. I just want to make sure 300ohm is an option.

    Shallow cups, open front and back, nice!
     
  12. tommytakis

    tommytakis MOT: E.T.A Headphones

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    if you really want a 300 ohm version, PM me and we can work something out for SBAF friends. win/ win ? :D
     
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  13. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

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    Just want to wish you both @E_Schaaf and @tommytakis the best of luck with these! I'm amazed at how fast you're making new headphones. Nice work. Too bad I've sworn allegiance to the ortho Gods or I would love to check these out! But I can't I'd be struck down by lighting immediately.
     
  14. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    Defeat it! Would prob swap in a Grado headband anyway. Supra and GenG in one.

    I think their thin foam pads and on-ear drivers add a certain unique flavor/experience. Excited to hear how your modern totl drivers may make Grado obsolete. Grado has an undeserved monopoly on the hifi supra niche - just no competition. They can sell whatever whacky sounding overpriced yet slightly endearing (friendly edit) aside from their recent Hemp homerun.

    edit: too far
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2021
  15. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex SBAF's Imelda Marcos

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    This was cryptic from me and I should elaborate.

    I've been a product person for over a decade. I have a lot of flops under my belt and I've learned from every one. One thing I've learned from consumer and one of the reasons I've gravitated toward B2B is that consumers say they only care about performance but that's the smallest fraction of a percent of any market that is vocal. If you want to focus only on the most important things (which I do) then you should ask yourself if maybe your target audience should be professionals who need your product to do a job.

    You make headphones that clearly have specific sound profiles, performance and durability in mind and that will appeal to some of the nerd posters here like myself but will never be enough outside of our echo chamber. I'd see if there's a market for what you're doing with people who need headphones for work.

    I know this is a passion project but I want to see you succeed and have hundreds, thousands or even more people experience the fruit of your labors. If B2C is the model, design, aesthetics and perceived fit and finish will play more of a factor.

    One of the reasons I'm posting is that I know other staff members have made comments to me personally and I don't like keeping it hidden. You folks are working really hard and I think you deserve to hear what isn't necessarily being shared otherwise.
     
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  16. E_Schaaf

    E_Schaaf MOT: E.T.A Headphones

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    Thank you for elaborating, you are absolutely right and putting those thoughts out in the open in plain and direct language has helped me feel tremendously better and generally more constructive than I was earlier. When I try to read between the lines my emotions tend to get the better of me especially with something I have such passion and pride about.

    Of course I want the headphones to both sound and look as good as possible, where anyone could see a set and think 'that looks cool, I want it' without knowing anything about what's at play to achieve the sound profile. I'm just the tuning and ideas person on the team. Tommy has some fresh strategies about polishing up fit and finish that hadn't even crossed my mind. The push was needed. Between the two of us and 'A' on the team hopefully we can step up to the plate of serving a wider audience.
     
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  17. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    Same reason for me being critical on your ETA threads and Discord. For example, first time you shared your supra design sketch-up I called it a cock-up, remember? Ev your threads are fantastic and one of my fav parts of SBAF. Keep it up!
     
  18. Cryptowolf

    Cryptowolf Repping Chi Town - Friend

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    Have you had an opportunity to test fit and seal when wearing glasses? One of the things I really like about ZMF designs is the seal is minimally compromised by thinner glasses frames. I am also more interested in a 300 ohm version, because the majority of my listening is done while working.
     
  19. E_Schaaf

    E_Schaaf MOT: E.T.A Headphones

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    Glasses sit behind the ears, the pads sit on top of your ears. No seal issues whatsoever, the pads and glasses don't even touch :)
     
  20. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    Instead of the radial flat columns perhaps some lattice or rounded columns would look prettier. Im sure highly detailed or extra complex shapes can take a lot longer to produce and difficult to ensure consistent quality since 3DP is probably not perfect and requires extra polishing by hand post print. I know little about 3DP process so just guessing.

    I particularly like the unvarnished looks and uniquely 3DP textures. However, the Supra appears more basic in form vs Genesis, not in terms of sound design, but aesthetically less interesting to look at which includes the headband unfortunately. And the grill’s metal mesh looks very amateur. Why not 3DP grill? Simple 3DP honeycomb grills look nice. Acoustically transparent? I think the radial flat columns could appear moreso too.
     

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