Schiit Syn Review, Discussion, Impressions, Measurements

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by purr1n, Mar 31, 2023.

  1. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    The Schiit Syn was publicly shown at the Schiit Meet in CCTX last evening. I will write up a couple notes I took from the meet and also provide commentary for many things brought up in this thread: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/schiit-syn-discussion.13317/
    IMG_0757.jpg
    Blu-Ray Player -> Syn -> Bunch O' Rekkrs -> Klipsch speakers

    On Schiit's website, the Syn is described as a "UNIVERSAL SURROUND DAC / PREAMP / HEADPHONE AMP"
    So WTF does the Syn do and how can it be used? Based on this meet, I see it used in several ways:
    1. As a cheap drop-in surround sound processor for those with existing two-channel systems - allowing them to pull off 5.1 HT duties. This would my my person use case.
    2. As a headphone listening soundstage enhancer, providing the ability to expand stereo width and adjust the presence region to move the vocals (or other instrument in the vocal range) forward or back.
    3. As a surround sound processor for music. Holy shit, this was the surprise of the night for me.
    4. For people with PCs to build a cheap multi-purpose setup for surround sound gaming or watching streaming with surround.
    I will do a little FAQ in the next post.

    --

     
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    Last edited: Apr 12, 2023
  2. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    The Syn does not decode DD5.1 or DTS. What is does is decode the matrix surround information encoded into the stereo channels of Netflix, Paramount+, Disney+, HBO Max, etc.

    If using from a TV's optical output, we will need to get the TV to PCM or Stereo Out. Setting the TV's optical output to Auto or DD5.1 will not work.

    Cannot take 5.1 unless it is folded down into matrixed stereo.

    I would highly advise that normal or ornery peoples get such if they want to build a home theatre. The Syn is for audiophile weirdos, of which 99.8% of people who participate in this site area. To give you guys some perspective, I rarely talk about SBAF to normal people. And I never talk about SBAF to girls.

    With respect to functionality, the $400 Atmos receiver from BB will only have speaker outs and no line outs. That $400 receiver will likely sound like ass. The downside of Syn is no real double-D 5.1. Also, an external DAC can also be used with the Syn.

    Anecdotally, I would say it's pretty darn close. However, being in the biz, I've always felt the double-D stuff was a company that muscled into the biz tech heads at the studios to maintain their licensing fees. Blind testing and objective measurements between a bonafide 5.1 processor and the Syn of the channel outputs waveforms would best demonstrate.

    FWIW: https://www.stereophile.com/content/jim-fosgate-surround-sound-mind-page-2

    Yeah, exactly.

    Yup none of them standards are supposed - and yet compatibility with all them because of matrix surround encoding into the base stereo channels of content as a fallback.

    I believe the xover frequency and slope is fixed. I will measure and let you guys know. We will have to make the adjustments on the subwoofer ourselves.

    No XLR outputs. Also doesn't scratch my balls. To be serious, I did have issues with an early Syn bare PCB with interference noise from the OLED at high refresh rates on my computer. Basically had to go with RCA that were shielded instead of cheapy ones. I will test again now with the final Syn in a chassis and report back. Note that I was using self powered speakers so the RCA runs were lengthy.[/quote][/quote]

    It's Hel/Fulla class. Not enough real-estate on PCB probably.

    Presence region mid/upper mids only. Will measure and report back.

    This is the one advantage that a true double-D system should have, dedicated dialogue channel. The center is indeed a sum of the L and R. The center channel volume can be adjusted independently from the master. Same thing for the surround channels. Sub volume will have to be adjusted at the sub.
     
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    Last edited: Mar 31, 2023
  3. PacoTaco

    PacoTaco Friend

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    I'm curious how this works and if it will work better for headphones than something like Creative's solutions or Tempest 3D. Maybe not in imaging per se, but all the VSS solutions I've ever tried (even Tempest 3D) hits the bass and treble in a way that I end up just turning it off and using stereo again. This sounds like maybe a way of getting the same effect WITHOUT that hit...but idk. I am curious.

    Shit, I guess I need to remove "SBAF Friend" off my Tinder and Bumble bios.



    Honestly, I'm seeing this as a Modi/Magni combo unit with a mic-input and a lot of RCAs for stereo/speaker amps as a pre. A big problem I had with the Hel 2E was that, despite being a half-decent DAC, it was a terrible amp. And that I can use with the grumpy-ass PS5 in my bed room. I wouldn't use this on my desk because, quite frankly, I have a way better dac and amp already, but this is a very subtle solution for something TV-oriented.

    And, being discrete, it'll sound better than whatever-the-hell the Magnius ended up being.
     
  4. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    For folding down a surround experience into headphones, I feel the Creative Solution (Sound Blaster G6) with these very specific tweaks from @Hands will likely work better: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...tual-surround-musings-and-measurements.11838/ worked better for games. I can see the Syn better for music though.
     
  5. ergopower

    ergopower Friend

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    I didn't get this from the initial descriptions, and this makes it a lot more interesting. I'm trying to figure this out now. I have one system for music and movies, using a Yahama RX-A series AVR, and I wonder what I give up for for using it for music. Everything must pass through its internal ESS 9016 DAC. Currently thinking easiest improvement is using HDMI out to a converter to S/PDIF to a decent DAC to dedicated L & R amp.
    But if I were starting from scratch, this would be really tempting.
    Pros:
    • could be cheaper
    • or could go as high-end as you want for 2 channel
    • ability for surround effects from stereo music
    Con: can't play voice-only center channel

    Edit - is it certain that the center channel information is not folded into the stereo signal extracted from 5.1?
     
  6. PacoTaco

    PacoTaco Friend

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    I mean, it only takes stereo signal. If that stereo signal came from 5.1 that was matrixed into stereo, I assume it would be able to just do whatever the "center" channel sound in the matrix was.
     
  7. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Not totally certain. It's based on what I'm used to hearing at the theater or mix stages compared to at home with the Syn. I do find that I crank up the presence EQ knob when the center channel is used, otherwise dialogue gets drowned out a bit. Another factor is that in proper theaters and mix stages, the systems are more often than not JBL Cinema horns - that means super low distortion, very high clarity, and articulate transients.

    I'm using a small JBL self powered monitor for the center channel - so this could be the cause of less than expected performance (again note my reference). Still way way better than the LG TV and running without a center especially if sitting off to the side of the couch.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2023
  8. Paul Scandal

    Paul Scandal New

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    Why couldn't they subtract the unique information from the l and r channels for the center, have only true mono there?
     
  9. ColtMrFire

    ColtMrFire Writes better fan fics than you

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    I talked to Jason about this thing at the meet and at one point I mentioned (the now defunct) Circuit City, which I worked at ages ago. Basically I'd get confused normies in there asking the kinds of questions I'm seeing in these threads, and I always had to sell them on some dumb Onkyo or Sony thing to satisfy their needs, then upsell the protection plans (which is how these places made their real money).

    Anyway, this is to say Syn brings me back to the late 90s, early 2000s when as a teen, I was more into home theater, and where stereo was matrix'd into Dolby Pro-logic (even back when people were still using VHS for their surround systems), and I could never tell much difference between discreet 5.1 and matrix'd. Ah, yes... also the days of early DVD with its compressed audio that sounded worse than the laserdiscs I was used to collecting, with their uncompressed soundtracks, which were often pulled straight from the theatrical mix... and I could always tell DVD sounded worse (now remixed for home systems and normies who couldn't tell the difference, but I could)

    Anyway, this might be perfect for me since I'm using powered monitors for my OLED watching, and have been kind of craving a more surround like experience with greater control.
     
  10. Sonofsin

    Sonofsin Acquaintance

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    From the DD website, this is how a Downmix is created:

    Stereo downmix settings:

    All the stereo downmix options except Direct Render are created by first creating a 5.1 downmix
    From the 7.1 render of .atmos content, and then downmixing from 5.1 to 2.0 in the same manner as 2.0 consumer products. The choice of the 5.1 downmix method above affects the subsequent 5.1 to 2.0 downmix.

    Lo/Ro - default: Downmixes from 5.1 to Stereo using the coefficients:

    Lo = L + (–3 dB × C) + (–3 dB × Ls)
    Ro = R + (–3 dB × C) + (–3 dB × Rs)

    Lt/Rt (Pro Logic II): Downmixes from 5.1 to Stereo using the coefficients:

    Lt = L + (–3 dB × C) – (–1.2 dB × Ls) – (–6.2 dB × Rs)
    Rt = R + (–3 dB × C) + (–6.2 dB × Ls) + (–1.2 dB × Rs)

    Lt/Rt (Pro Logic II) w/Phase 90: Downmixes from 5.1 to Stereo using the coefficients:

    Lt = L + (–3 dB × C) – (–1.2 dB × Ls) – (–6.2 dB × Rs)
    Rt = R + (–3 dB × C) + (–6.2 dB × Ls) + (–1.2 dB × Rs)

    Applies a 90 degree phase shift to Ls/Rs prior to feeding the downmix which reduces undesirable signal cancellation, improves imaging, and enables proper matrix decoding. It is strongly recommended to use the 90-degree phase shift for
    Any Lt/Rt downmixes.
     
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  11. M3NTAL

    M3NTAL Friend

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    Is there a particular headphone that works better/worse with the system, or is it a drive what ya brought?
     
  12. Pogo

    Pogo Friend

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    I just ordered one, my compliments to Schiit for creating exactly the component needed to drag my ancient B&K Pro 10 preamp into the 21st century! Remote volume control and the ability to integrate surround sound,seems like Christmas came early.
     
  13. Clemmaster

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    Surround or not, this is Schiit’s first remote controlled DAC/preamp with optical input, which makes it a good replacement for the Emotiva DC-1 to pair with powered speakers.
     
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  14. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Some measurements...

    Here is the effect of the presence knob. In practical use with a center channel, I set the knob to about 3 o'clock. Adding the center channel sum makes the sound a bit bassier. The EQ of the presence knob seems perfectly suited. It does lift everything above the bass with the emphasis near 2kHz.
    upload_2023-4-3_10-6-29.png
     
  15. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Here is the subwoofer output (non adjustable - user must adjust level at the sub).
    The slope is a nice 18db/octave already. xover point is 80Hz.
    upload_2023-4-3_10-25-58.png
     
  16. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Obligatory SINAD. (SINAD is almost next to useless, but some people think it means something. It means about as much as alcohol % on a bottle of wine).

    Schiit Syn
    (optical input, volume cranked to max, 100k-ohm load, 20kHz bandwidth, HPSA cheat mode on)
    upload_2023-4-3_10-41-1.png
    Note: The output is limited to 1.87Vrms using the optical input.
     
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    Last edited: Apr 3, 2023
  17. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Schiit Syn
    (analog input 2Vrms, volume cranked to max, 100k-ohm load, 20kHz bandwidth, HPSA cheat mode on, HPSG on)
    upload_2023-4-3_10-47-12.png

    Oooh, with a better source, we get betterer SINAD!
     
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    Last edited: Apr 3, 2023
  18. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    typo, 100k, fixed
     
  19. LetMeBeFrank

    LetMeBeFrank Won't tell anyone my name is actually Francis

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    Strongly considering one of these, but I'm wondering how well a rekkr would power my Cornwalls. Maybe I'd be better off with a gjallarhorn for the Cornwalls and a mono rekkr for center, and a stereo rekkr for the rears. I'll never go more than 5.1 for surround, so this might be the ticket to better quality than my Sony AVR...
     
  20. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Get Gjallarhorn. Rekkr seems to work better for smaller woofers.

    ---

    FWIW, just playing around with stuff.
    IMG_0786.jpg
     

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