PIONEER Headphone Development- Your input welcome

What's up SBAF?

I'm back!

I am in Japan as I type this and have just begun to share my ideas with the team in Japan for the HP strategy I have been working on since I joined Pioneer/Onkyo in Dec. In an effort to include much of your input as early as possible, I'm an starting to engage with you early into the process (that means material updates may be a bit slow to arrive, but I promise to keep updating).

So...lets start a discussion. What do you want to see in a mid-premium Pioneer HP offering. Technologies, features, accessories, materials, etc etc...my current thinking is to build something that pushes the limits for what can be done sonically around $200-300, $400-500 and maybe $700 as well as something really special that we can hopefully build in JAPAN!

For this project I have some ideas on material composition (specifically materials known to Japan and that I have never seen used on an audio product before), but I haven't fully completed the mood board yet. My hope is that we can have some fun discussions and we can share the development process with you from start to finish.

All the Best,

Steve

 

Instead of exploring new options, why don't you start with SE-MASTER1? I feel like so much potentials wasted in that headphone

 

I agree. Materials, accessories and features are great but I can get all those things in many mediocre headphones. Pioneer are a great company that has made / does make some truly outstanding gear. Why not take what was learnt making the SE Master 1 and try and make a new headphone that sounds incredible, is built well and is comfortable.

That is seemingly a far harder goal than building a pretty headphone ecosystem for people to throw money into.

 

Hi Steve,

I see your post and wonder, where is sound prioritized? I get that materials and cool designs are fun for you to explore but Sennheiser has been hugely successful and their designs are purpose built around optimizing sonic performance first and comfort second. Everything else takes a back seat to those two things. I happen to agree with those being my two criteria when judging a headphone, not it's looks.

I hope good things can happen with you working at Pioneer/Onkyo.

Chris

 

Is there any opportunity for trickle down from TAD?

 

Agreed with cskippy, focus on the sound and the rest will fall into place. We don't need more fashion-fi that disappoints sonically like the Z1R, HP3, and the Meze shit. Tune a headphone intelligently: measure it, listen to it, and repeat.

Get some good drivers first and foremost. Build a headphone around them with with a very open design like what Sennheiser does. Keep things simple, suspension headbands and velour pads are always a safe bet. When designing the headband, baffle, and pads remember that individual anatomy varies a lot between people, so headphones that have very position dependent frequency response are real trouble. Highly positional headphones mean poor first impressions and a very shaky consensus in the sound impressions, neither being good for sales.

 

If I could build my perfect headphone, it would sound like the ZMF Eikon with maybe a touch more treble and air, be accommodating for big ears (think AKG K702), and have the soundstage of the HD800. Mount it all on a Mr Speakers Ether Flow headband and gimbal system to keep the weight super low, only with a super soft leather suspension strap... But one that doesn't feel like it will rip at any moment like the HiFiMan HeK straps do. Use Audeze Vegan Pad style earpads for comfort...

If you build this, I'll buy 5 of them, regardless of price.

Also... HI! How have you been? Good to see you around. Cya

 

My request is probably moderate but nice and simple. Please work towards a headphone with very good to excellent performance that isn't on this insane price trajectory that has taken over the audiophile world.

Become the Schiit of headphones and laugh at everyone as you sweep the market.

 

Since Pioneer is mostly known on the consumer market, I doubt they want to pivot and take on Sennheiser and AKG.

With this in mind, make a noise cancelling and Bluetooth options that we can suggest to our non hi-fi friends.

Seriously I can't tell you how many times someone asks me for advice on headphones since "I am in the know". Almost everytime their requirements are 1) closed, 2) Noise Cancelling or wireless or both.

Bose has this market sown up, but do it at at a price tag between $79 - $199 in multi-tiered options and clean up.

 

Consumer-fi is not a meritocracy. It's about marketing budget. I don't think Pioneer is going to effectively tackle that especially when companies like Sennheiser can't even do well there.

 

I would agree... kind of. If Steve wanted to go that way, why would he be here asking us? =) I hope he makes the next HD650 audiophile legendary type headphone. We all benefit if he does.

Edit: I quoted the wrong post originally.

 

WOW, so many responses so quick!! AWESOME. THANK YOU, keep them coming.

A few more details, I have been given freedom to design what we need, specifically for the US. But we believe if we do this right, it will transfer to other regions.

I assure you #1 goal will be driver tech and sound quality, when I said push the limits at the respected price points, I was referring to sound quality, as well as fit and finish.

I have some pics to upload of about 20 historical models I found from our past. We laid them all out on a table to study yesterday (including the first ever Pioneer HP-made around late 1950's or early 1960's). My internet connection at the moment is not fantastic, so I can't yet post the pics, but I will as soon as possible.

 

Spare parts that stay stocked... my onkyo fc300 for example, ear cushion fell apart from being taken on one plane trip and I can't even buy a replacement set if I wanted to.

 

Glad to see you again! I hope Pioneer is treating you as well as you deserve
To put a bit of context, you released the bassheads dream with Klipsch, so bassheads are already served

I second the idea of getting TAD involved, great stuff!

I know that the fit, finish and build quality will be second to none, the only request I will do here is: if the headphones are full size, over the ear, please, make the ear cavity of the earpads taller than 65mm, so I can wear them over the ear.

Sonics...long story short:
For me (and, if you read some threads here, much more people) HD650 (KISS mod) has the very best mids-treble transition and timbre available in dynamic headphones and impeccable channel matching, but bass is sub par. Audeze LCD-2C has 0.1% distortion at 100db accross all the audioband and a glorious non emphasized bass...a mix of those two would be something stunning. Couple that with nice imaging and a coherent headstage of appropiate size (not 3-blob, not HD800-like exaggerated and not Focal-like claustrophobic), a black background, fast and clean transient response and a clean, free of peaks CSD and you're golden.
High impedance (or, at least, higher than 50 ohms, and as flat as possible) would be the icing in the cake.
Oh, and please, make them fully open, at least the 700$ and the "really special, hopefully made in Japan" ones.

If you can make the whole line across those parameters (more or less the same timbre, and the more expensive the headphone, the better the technicalities and measurements) I think it could be a home run.

Wish you the best luck with this project, and please keep us updated

 

Unfucked FR (no upper-mid suckout and minimal midbass bloat), low distortion, decent transient handling. Not horribly uncomfortable or fragile. Spares readily available and easy to fit. That's quite enough.

 

I agree, targeting the HD 650 seems like a good idea. Sennheiser is apparently discontinuing it so you should have an easy time to cater to that niche of inoffensive sounding fully open headphones at 300-500USD.
The SE-Monitor 5 transducer looks pretty good, maybe modify that a bit for open acoustics.
Don't try to reinvent the wheel, just focus on making a decent headphone.
Take a look at what Audio Technica has done with the R70X.

 

Can we get some oval shaped cups since our ears aren't circular? That'd be great. A standard socket/jack for detachable cables, dual entry, other than that an HD650 or B&K target curve would be a good start and I guess most other things have been covered already.

Might be too costly R&D-wise, but coming up with a transducer design with higher excursion to hit the bass like Focal can using electrodynamics would be another wishlist item.

 

Welcome back, glad to see you found a new home in the headphone industry! Some stream of consciousness ideas:

- I´ll also second the idea of targeting the HD 600/650 sound signature with improved bass performance (open design) if possible. It seems Sennheiser itself is more interested in emphasized treble these days and there isn´t much recent competition: AudioQuest NightHawk (too dark, limited distribution) and Focal Clear (limited distribution, too expensive for hi-fi mainstream, heavy). Especially now with Sennheiser apparently planning to discontinue the HD 650 it just looks like a great market opening. There are enough V-tuned headphones on the market already and closed designs will need to compete with Beats, which is a losing battle even if they are better sounding.

- +1 for all the modular design with spare parts available comments. Increases value and also creates the impression that Pioneer/Onkyo is in this for the long game (hopefully true). I d also recommend going with a classic headband design that clamps (= HD 600/HD650/HE-1) instead of a suspension system. It´s a time tested design and mainstream (for audio) consumers are used to it. Suspension systems are more rare/less familiar to consumers. That being said, a well done suspension system can be awesome too.

- Use the Sennheiser style headband padding design (HD 650, HD 800 series) where there´s an empty spot at the top of your head to prevent hotspots forming. It just works and is cheap to implement.

- Make it as lightweight as possible. Function over form, no need to use heavy metals where they are not optimal. This is something Sennheiser has optimized to perfection. There´s nothing wrong with high quality plastics if they improve the ergonomics. As for aesthetics I´d go for something minimalistic that doesn´t draw much attention to itself. Something neutral that won´t turn anyone off (vs. for example the Klipsch headphone look, while unique, is a minus for my taste).

- Really happy to hear those planned price points. The headphone game has gone crazy for a long time already. It´s about time we see someone going for volume instead of just selling niche quantities at extreme prices. Pioneer/Onkyo should have a pretty good distribution network too.

- Explore planar drivers. They should make it easy to provide the bass improvements most consumers are looking for and in this price range you won´t have to go for ultimate resolving capability anyway (classic dynamic driver strength) since they need to be all rounders (= usable for mainstream top 40 stuff too).

 

Or, you know, don't- given that they're much harder to do well, especially on a budget.

 

I agree with @Kattefjaes, stay away from planar drivers.