PAP Trio 15 and DIY - Discussion

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by Cakecake, Apr 23, 2018.

  1. skem

    skem Friend

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    Has @Muse Wanderer or anybody else heard the PAP Trio compared to any of the bigger Troels Gravesen designs?

    Edit: maybe this answers most of my questions. http://www.linkwitzlab.com/conclusions.htm

    It also explains why Muse Wander’s room might be particularly well matched to PAP open baffles.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2019
  2. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex SBAF's Imelda Marcos

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    I think this is where I'll land (at least until I try to figure out how to add Fostex supertweeters).

    I'll publish the CAD I'll use for the CNC for this once I confirm this is my final layout. I'll also do a 2 woofer + driver version for those of you interested. I'm finding a lot of local libraries and maker spaces provide cheap/free access to a CNC. I'll do layouts for 4' x 8' sheets of MDF.
     

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  3. Muse Wanderer

    Muse Wanderer Friend

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    I have heard a multitude of boxed speakers at Munich High End and Deluxe show in various setups and only indirectly compared them to the PAP trio Voxativ and @Serious DIY Voxativ setup with the same music.

    Whilst I haven't heard Troels Gravesen's speakers, I soon realised that boxed speakers have their own generic sound compared to open baffles.

    It all boils down to first and foremost what matters most to you.

    Boxed speakers will give you low extension, slam, feel it in your bones bass that can be very tricky to control from bleeding into the lower mids. They are 'fun' to listen to and can go very low (not needed in most acoustic music I listen to except organ).

    The back-loaded horns I listened to provided a smeared bass and lowest mids that sounded horrific to my ears. The delayed sound emanating from the horn was too unpleasant. The Voxativ Ampeggio Due was more balanced but thinner sounding and could not reach high SPL sound without distorting. I haven't heard the original Ampeggios BLH.

    Open baffles will provide extremely defined airy bass with sculpted bass notes that are rich in all the fundamental and their harmonic frequencies. The sound interacts better with the room as long as there is enough space at the back. I aim towards 3 feet space from front wall with good extension to 32Hz and exceptional clarity. The bass is seamless with the low mids since the PAP Eminence woofers keep up with the crossover tamed Voxativ driver. My room may be suited to open baffles being so large in an open plan pattern and irregular shaped stonework that diffuse the sound. There are 'opinions' on some forums that placing open baffles on long wall provides better sound. I still need to test different placements across narrow wall but it is impractical being a living room hallway design.

    Treble and high mids are very dependent on the widebander used and crossover applied. Low mids are less easily localised due to woofer - widebander interaction especially if you sit quite near to the speakers as I do. You also need space for the woofer sound to gel with the widebander that limits how much I can move the speakers from the front wall. The low-lying widebander on PAP trio 15 necessitates that you sit at a low ear level. I use a recliner sofa with good effect. It can be a nuisance for some but nothing is perfect. The quintet is a solution as the Voxativ will be lifted up by another 20 inches or so. Bass slam, a deficiency in OBs will probably improve further. My wife will kill me though if I end up with eight 15 inchers in the family living room!

    The Voxativ on the PAPs and Serious' setup presents high mids and treble that is very refined, neutral and smooth being contained from sounding bright as long as the high frequency crossover is not bridged on the PAPs. Other widebanders may sound very bright, piercing edged, with less resolution and speed as I experienced with an OB AER setup. I highly recommend listening to Voxativ drivers as their sound is highly resolving, accurate, able to reach high SPLs and smooth for a widebander design.

    Listening and judging for yourself is the best option. I almost purchased a used Voxativ ampeggio on sale before listening to so many speaker setups over 3 days. You may be surprised at what you will like.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2019
  4. GoodEnoughGear

    GoodEnoughGear Evil Dr. Shultz‎

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    With regard to the PAP Trio vs Quintet design, am I correct in my thinking that you're basically gaining efficiency and higher SPL capability by doubling up on the bass drivers? Presumably the crossovers will be tuned for a similar FR and the bass drivers will go no deeper...?
     
  5. crazychile

    crazychile Eastern Iowa's Spiciest Pepper

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    I thought I’d share a couple of things that I learned recently from an email conversation I just had with Ze’ev from PAP....

    1. The crossover boards are the same irregardless of which tweeter you use on the Trio 15, EXCEPT the board for the Heil AMT is different. This is the tweeter I’m starting with so if I want to experiment with the TBs, I’ll have to cough up more $ for the different board. I’m also making the assumption that although there are drivers that use the same board, the parts are probably different values for each iteration. Also the Heil crossovers are more money....$650.

    2. I asked Ze’ev about the importance of rear mounting the woofers on the baffles vs. front mounting. He said it makes no difference whatsoever. It’s purely a cosmetic thing. So those of you that are either router deficient or skill impaired (like me) can break out the caveman tools and still get decent looking results.
     
  6. crazychile

    crazychile Eastern Iowa's Spiciest Pepper

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    Have any of you guys tried running your PAPs with big ass power? I know they are pretty high efficiency but I've been following some of the pro amp recommendations in other threads and might give a pro class AB a try or maybe some older ST series from Bryston. In any case on a 4 ohm load I'd probably be in the 250-500w range. I don't play at ear bleeding levels but I'd like something that really grips the bass.
     
  7. sphinxvc

    sphinxvc Gear Master (retired)

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    Coming from cabinet speakers, the bass on OB immediately struck me as better gripped/articulate even with modest power.

    Don't pay for $500 PCB that connects 3 to 4 parts together. Use the schematic I posted a page or two ago and modify to these part values for Tang Bang:

    L1: 4.7mH, C: 82Mf, R1: 0.1ohm, there's no R2
     
  8. GoodEnoughGear

    GoodEnoughGear Evil Dr. Shultz‎

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    I'm thinking Aegir biamp may be the ticket. Two or three, or four if you really want.
     
  9. crazychile

    crazychile Eastern Iowa's Spiciest Pepper

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    Thanks but I'm using the Heil...Id gladly cook up my own Xover to save the money, but I thought the standard Leonidas Xover worked for all the tweeter options BUT the Heil. I'm definitely open to suggestions.
     
  10. Cakecake

    Cakecake Guest

    I used Vidar with my PAP voxativ, pretty happy with it, bass is gud
     
  11. Btdk34

    Btdk34 Facebook Friend

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    I've only used the Emotiva A-700 so far and it's pretty decent. I'm sure the Vidar or Aegir (when available) would be a much higher quality option. I'm hoping to head that direction when funds allow.
     
  12. sphinxvc

    sphinxvc Gear Master (retired)

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    Yup, won't work for the Heil.
    --
    On a side note, I spent a few months using @Serious x-over for the Betas and AC 1.6 and went back to the 'Leonidas' a few days ago. I definitely prefer the latter, despite the fact that it restrains the Voxativ a bit, but all qualities of the bass are superior.
     
  13. captkirk

    captkirk Khan's BFF

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    I'm seeing a few sub $2k sales for pairs on HifiShark, but everything new is around 2.5-3k.

    Did you pick up the Voxativs used, or has the prices gone ballistic since you purchased them?
     
  14. SineDave

    SineDave Friend

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    I've run mine off a D-Sonic M3a-3000S (1500WPC) just for kicks, though it's normally driving other more difficult loads and it was fun, but my day to day amp for the Trio15 TB's is an Anthem MCA225, which is a fantastic pairing. These speakers definitely like "real" power to give nice bass response - again I think too many audiophiles forget the importance of damping factor and current when it comes to low frequency performance. Just my opinion.
     
  15. sphinxvc

    sphinxvc Gear Master (retired)

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    Yep, used.
     
  16. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex SBAF's Imelda Marcos

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    Find a local University and post to the job board for an EE grad student to build the lx mini crossover for you.

    What is your crossover point? I'll make the tweaks to the circuit so you can swap a couple resistors and caps from the kit and have it work for you.
     
  17. crazychile

    crazychile Eastern Iowa's Spiciest Pepper

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    Guys, I was hoping you could help me with my PAP notch filter. I have some basic Xover experience but I haven't been able to locate much in the way of useful info when trying to implement a notch filter. In a recent correspondence with Ze'ev I was able to get him to disclose that they use a notch filter to "shave the climb to 1.5k". (on the top woofer) I was able to find the following calculator:
    https://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/Calculator/ParallelNotchFilter/
    Looking at the 15Neo specs, I'm not really sure when to start/stop the attenuation and by how many dB. The big peak occurs above the 950Hz Xover point, but because it's a first order Xover I'm guessing the peak is still an issue. The rest of the design is pretty straight forward.

    Top woofer - First order low pass at 950Hz + notch filter
    Heil AMT Tweeter - First order high pass at 950Hz (+ some dB attenuation...I'll have to experiment to determine...Heil AMT specs are a little vague)
    Bottom Woofer - first order low pass at 250Hz

    I don't even know if the calculator I linked to is even right for this application. Any advice is appreciated.

    On another note, I think the new Ragnarok might fulfill my amplifier search, now that it will have remote and run pretty cool. OB-A15Neo.png
     
  18. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex SBAF's Imelda Marcos

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    I don't find the woofer to be a good substitute for the moth over 400-500Hz so I cross over at 350 with the moths and call it a day.

    Build the pass b4 clone for your target frequency and call it a day.
     
  19. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    A notch filter won't do much here and isn't the most elegant approach. The main issue is the rising impedance which will severely nerf any kind of filter you put on it. To counter the rising response, you will need a Zobel which parallels the driver with a resistor and cap (these two in series): (R+C) | driver.

    A 8.2 ohm resistor and 8.2uF cap should work for the Zobel. It doesn't need to be exact. It just needs to sufficiently flatten the impedance in the xover region.

    After this, the trick to get 1st order LPF at 950Hz is not a LPF at 950 and notch filter (3 parts), but a single cap for a LPF at 500Hz where the woofer's response starts to rise. This should get you close to 950-1000Hz 1st order acoustic response. Use 6.5 ohms for calculating the size of the cap.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2019
  20. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    As for tweaking the cap, for 500Hz 1st order 6.5-ohms, we are looking at 47uF (note: I am only using standard values for parts).

    You may want to start out with a bunch cheapass electrolytic caps and parallel them together to get a multitude of values. I'd start with 33uF (or even lower), and then add 10uF, 22uF, etc. until you get the right crossover point. Don't have to be precise - and you can't anyway because capacitors don't come in values such as 51.23uF unless it's by accident. A few uF off and you will be fine.

    After you've settled on the value that you need (via measurements and preferably listening), then go for the audiophile boutique caps.

    Edit: cap is for high pass. For low pass get big coil and unwind to get correct value.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2019

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