Passive Schiit shootout: Saga vs. Freya vs. SYS

Discussion in 'Preamps' started by rlow, Mar 21, 2019.

  1. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    Tl;dr: SYS >> Saga > Freya

    Based on some opinions provided on the Passive Volume Control thread and others, I decided to test out a SYS preamp that I had purchased late last year (but hadn’t used yet) and put it up against Saga and Freya as a passive preamp/volume control. I only have a single source (Yggdrasil A2) so I really don’t need the source switching of any of these preamps, but of course they all have it anyhow.


    For testing setup, all preamps used the SE outputs going into a single Vidar feeding Graham Chartwell LS6 speakers + a REL T7i sub. All preamps were level matched to within 0.2dB. Balanced connections from Yggdrasil could only be used on Freya of course, since it’s the only one that has balanced inputs - the others used the SE outputs from Yggdrasil.


    I’ve mentioned over on the Freya thread that I preferred Freya in tube mode (with the tubes I have in it currently) over passive mode (way more), JFET mode (somewhat more). In particular I like the soundstage expansion, depth and layering that tube mode brings. In the past I’ve found that Saga is somewhat better in passive mode than Freya passive, and Saga in tube mode is a bit better than passive, but it’s a pretty subtle difference IMO (even with a good tube). Bottom line, I’ve preferred my tube mode setup with Freya over any other mode on either Freya or Saga by a pretty good margin. In addition to the soundstage expansion, I prefer the solidity, the clean lines, immediacy, lack of blur and mud and better seperation with tube mode. I figured that active tube mode was just something that I preferred over anything passive.


    Then I tried SYS. And I almost immediately thought “Crap, this cheap little thing sounds GOOD!”


    To test the transparency of these passives I decided to try comparing them against going direct from Yggdrasil into Vidar using Roon’s digital/DSP volume control. Roon’s DSP volume ctrl is touted as being “non-destructive” as far as bit depth goes, due to internal upsampling prior to attenuation. Whether I fully buy that or not, I will say that I have a difficult time telling the diff between having the DSP vol control switched on in Roon vs. going bit-perfect. Maybe a slight change, but not huge and easily forgotten after switching. And in this case, each passive preamp I was testing would have the DSP volume control in the chain, but simply with no attentuation until I went direct from Yggdrasil (actually in some cases I put 1dB of attenuation in Roon just to make sure it was doing something for all the preamps). In general I only need between 12-16 dB of attenuation from Yggdrasil into Vidar to get to volume levels I like to evaluate with, so not a massive amount anyhow - my speakers are pretty inefficient, the volume knob tends to be fairly cranked.


    First off, Yggdrasil direct into Vidar using Roon to control volume actually sounds good. Like really good. You get this sense of purity and evenness- it just sounds ‘right’, with a really low noise floor and everything is very tight and controlled and rich sounding with an open, layered and holographic soundstage. Honestly I could live with this setup. Maybe the best preamp really is no preamp!? Plus, I can control volume from my seating position using Roon Remote, which is a benefit over SYS at least. So maybe something to consider for folks - a good digital volume control might allow you to avoid a preamp altogether with minimal loss (or maybe actually an improvement). I have no experience with other digital volume controls however - I can only say that Roon sounds pretty good to me, at least at the attenuation levels I need.


    All that said, when I compared Yggdrasil direct/digivol vs. Freya passive, the differences were immediately obvious - Freya was a much softer and more rounded presentation, with instruments and vocals congealing together and just a bit muddier. Snares and kick drums hit softer, cymbals sounded slightly muted and rolled off, voices sounded slightly veiled, acoustic guitar strums and plucks were less dynamic. As mentioned, this was actually using the balanced outputs from Yggdrasil going into Freya - vs. SE outputs of Yggdrasil going direct into Vidar (as well as SYS and Saga). And the worst change for me was actually the soundstage collapse - everything narrowed between the speakers and lost all depth, becoming a flat plane.


    Turning to Saga in passive (again vs. Yggdrasil direct), many of the same differences emerged, but to a slightly lesser extent. However, it still had the rounded, softer presentation. The soundstage collapse was less severe, but still some narrowing and loss of depth and layers. Saga passive actually sounds pretty pleasant though - warm and euphonic, if you like that sort of thing (and depending what else you pair it with). It’s less offensive to me than Freya passive, but still loses the dynamics/bite and the clarity and openness and holographic soundstage of Yggdrasil direct to Vidar.


    So then I switched over to SYS. This was by far the closest sounding to Yggdrasil direct. Really, really similar. Maybe the slightest bit leaner and less warm than Yggdrasil direct, but this may actually come down to the interconnects I was using going from Yggdrasil to Vidar, vs SYS to Vidar. More experimentation required to determine if my theory is correct. But still, the differences were very slight. The only thing I MAY have noticed with SYS was possibly a slightly higher noise floor or slightly grainier, but again this may be due to two sets of interconnects vs. one.


    SYS brought the same openness and expanded soundstage, clarity, tightness, plankton/atmostphere, extension, as going direct from Yggdrasil into Vidar. The only other loss I could detect may have been the slightest bit of layering and plankton lost on SYS, but again this may come mainly down to differences in interconnects.


    SYS is just frankly a lot better to my ear than Saga (in passive or tube mode) and Freya (in passive or JFET mode). Against Freya in tube mode, you don’t get the extra soundstage expansion and 3D layering that tubes bring, but you do get some other benefits, including what seems like a more even frequency response and tonality, a bit punchier bass (at least against the tubes I use currently) a bit lower noise floor and better transparency.


    I really didn’t expect that. SYS rocks.


    So now I have a request: Schiit please make a balanced SYS with a remote so that I can run Yggdrasil with two Schiit monoblocks! :punk:


    For now, if I do get monoblocks, I may just use Roon for volume control and go direct from Yggdrasil. I’m somewhat leery of doing this though since, if something goes wrong, I’m potentially putting the full output of Yggdrasil into the amps. I did this a couple of times accidentally while testing by leaving the Roon volume maxed when going direct into Yggdrasil. Was loud as hell, but it sounded pretty clean, and no harm to the speakers at least for that short a period - actually I think these speakers can likely handle it anyhow (at least for short periods) so probably not that much of a concern.


    I’m not sure what to do with Freya and Saga now. I think I’ll probably just sell Saga and keep Freya for the tube mode, which I still really like - plus obviously I can use it balanced out to monoblocks as well if I decide to go there. But the idea of dropping tubes from my setup altogether sounds sort of appealing- they’re kind of a pain in the ass even though they bring some attractive colorations. We’ll see where things go.


    For now I’ve been enjoying listening to SYS almost exclusively for a week and I like it a lot. Forget “Switch your Schiit”, how about “Savour your Schiit”!


    Some Listening notes:
    I went back and forth between each pair I was comparing a couple times before taking notes, so each set of notes is comparative.


    Freya vs. SYS


    Freya: Bloated, slower, woolier mid bassy. Congealed, closed in, thick. Darker, rolled off highs. No bite. Wet blanket drums. Loss of soundstage and plankton. Sound coming from narrow space between the speakers. Flat plane, no depth or layering. Boring, bland, uninvolving.


    SYS: Airy, fast, snappy, open. More extended top end, but not fatiguing. Microplankton, atmosphere, space. Speakers disappear. Better seperation. Tight articulate bass.


    Saga vs. SYS


    Saga slower, fuller, thicker, fuzzier. Darker tonality. Mid bass hump. Slight veil. Soundstage is centered, congealed and confused with complex passages. Crushed plankton. Warmer. Softer.


    SYS: Bigger, open, more expansive, clearer, crisper (not fatiguing), more seperation and better blackground, less veil over vocals, less bass bloat and softness. Sound coming from behind/around/above the speakers- speakers disappear. Bass tighter, more slam. Piano more dynamic, more real. No mud. Clean.
     
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    Last edited: Mar 21, 2019
  2. zonto

    zonto Friend

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    Thanks! Balanced SYS with remote would be killer.
     
  3. Cspirou

    Cspirou They call me Sparky

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    Can you measure the impedance? I'm wondering if they are all the same.
     
  4. monacelli

    monacelli Friend

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    Per the Schiit specs, Saga has an output impedance of 180R, Freya 210R, and for the SYS it's variable as a function of the attenuation. Jason spec'd the SYS output impedance as a maximum of 5k, so it's quite a bit different from Saga and Freya in this regard. I took a stab at modeling the relationship between attenuation and output impedance for a potentiometer-based attenuator [in this post], but I have not taken measurements to confirm. (Aside: I am also a SYS owner and think it's a tremendous value.)

    Edit: Per Cspirou's post below, the above figures reflect the output impedance of Saga and Freya in active mode only. In passive mode their OI's would also vary with attenuation, with the precise details depending on the topology (ladder, shunt, etc.).
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2019
  5. Kernel Kurtz

    Kernel Kurtz Friend

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    I would buy one of those in a second.
     
  6. Cspirou

    Cspirou They call me Sparky

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    That's not passive mode impedance
     
  7. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    @rlow when you happen to have any random DMM at hand reach measure the input resistance of the Saga & Freya and output resistances of them all at your listening level setting. Might explain the mystery a bit.
     
  8. Wasabi

    Wasabi New

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    Excellent comparison. Thanks!
     
  9. allegro

    allegro Friend

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    This is interesting thanks @rlow great post. I don't have speakers right now but I had to buy a Sys because the output of my new Yggdrasil was too hot for the 10K input impedance of the Alps pot on my Kenzie and I needed attenuation. I thought the Sys sounded a bit veiled so I bought a Saga which I felt was a definite improvement, especially in tube mode. Expectation bias? One chart I have seen shows the output impedance of the Saga in passive mode, 40% volume, to be about 1100 Ohms, Sys should be about the same.
     
  10. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    @Cspirou @Priidik @allegro - I don’t have a multimeter currently, but I’m willing to pick one up to try out. Atomic Bob had recommended one from Amazon which is under $20 CAD, so I think I’ll grab one of them.

    I may need a bit of guidance as to how to actually measure the OI once I have it however.
     
  11. schiit

    schiit SchiitHead

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    For $199 with a gain stage? As in, passive or gain, no buffer setting. Only one set of balanced I/O with two SE ins and an SE out? Because those are kinda the parameters you're talking about.

    For those interested in the whys and wherefores:

    1. Balanced pot with remote = 16mm Alps pot, custom taper and resistance. This is a big determinant of the bottom price.
    2. Remote means power supply and microprocessor. This also sets bottom price point.
    3. XLRs are physically HUGE, so if you want a lot of XLR I/O you're looking at a very large product. Hence only one set of balanced ins.

    For those wondering, bottom price point without a gain stage is probably $159-169, so might as well throw in a gain stage and make it $199, right?

    And to be clear, just blue-skying here, I'd actually have to design the preamp. And get custom pots. Which takes time. And to be super super super clear, no work has been done on a product like this, though I have thought about it in the past.
     
  12. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    $200 for a balanced SYS, I’d definitely be in (esp. with a remote).

    A simple as Schiit solid state remote volume control between your top DACs and a pair of monoblocks would be awesome if it was as transparent as SYS sounds (to my ears at least).
     
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    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
  13. zonto

    zonto Friend

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    A couple initial reactions:
    • Think the I/O seems fine. As @rlow mentioned it would really be a way to connect the top DACs via balanced out, as transparently as possible, to balanced monoblocks or a dual mono amp.
    • Given the intended use with the top DACs, would rather see the relay-stepped attenuator than a custom pot.
    • Re: form factor: what about something in a Saga-sized chassis, but just with no tubes. More like a differential, tubeless Saga I guess than a balanced SYS.
    In some ways, it would be nice to have a simple, transparent, solid state volume control integrated directly into Gungnir or Yggdrasil, but I could imagine the issues might outweigh the benefits.
     
  14. Aklegal

    Aklegal Friend

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    If we are just requesting stuff, how about a solid state, 256 linear step preamp with both a passive and JFET mode?

    Worth a shot.
     
  15. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    Don’t forget the spoiler and flame decals on the sides while you’re at it...oh and a kitchen sink.
     
  16. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    I was thinking about a stepper and wondering why Jason mentioned the custom pot instead. Is this a cost thing? Or maybe some other reason? There are some bloody expensive preamps out there that are still using pots...
     
  17. schiit

    schiit SchiitHead

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    Cost. For a balanced preamp, a stepper is significantly more than the pot--in fact, the cost stacks on top of the motorized pot if you want it to track the remote like Ragnarok 2.
     
  18. Scott Kramer

    Scott Kramer Friend

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    If you guys want a balanced sys, why not go all in. NO electrical parts. That means no remote also.

    I could see a repurposed Jot case, that has the same 4 gang alps pot it uses now, a switch, 2 xlr in's / 1 xlr out. or more since no power iec and rca.
    (I'm 1/2 kidding here)

    Take the Jot circuit board, go to town deleting everything until it looks like the sys board. Boom, done ;D

    [​IMG]
    Squint for the Jot layout.

    Maybe the sys is the way it is because there's basically no electronics in it.

    Edit: shit, call it Jot!
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
  19. Argopo

    Argopo Facebook Friend

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    Nice writeup. And it has got me wanting to investigate this in my own setup. I just don't have the same limited presentation with my Freya that you describe with yours.

    Nevertheless, I just ordered a SYS.
     
  20. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    You’re running Freya passive? What’s the rest of your chain?
     

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