Shills and softies

Discussion in 'General Audio Discussion' started by m17xr2b, May 25, 2019.

  1. elmoe

    elmoe Friend

    Pyrate Banned
    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2019
    Likes Received:
    956
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    We've gone from considering $400 to be ridiculously expensive and TOTL to being ok with different flavors for $4k each in the span of 10 years. I understand the one man band concept but I'm not sure I believe a LCD4 costs 3000 bucks more to make vs the LCD2. At some point outlandish marketing and inflated prices need to discredit these companies at least on some level in the eyes of the more savvy audiophiles, even if they're "cool" and will "come hang out".

    Edit: and don't get me wrong, I still think there are SBAF members that do just that, I've read many posts from purr1n for example shitting all over some companies (I'm looking at you Parasound) and deservedly so. Moar is better I guess is my point.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2019
  2. gaspasser

    gaspasser Flatulence Maestro

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2016
    Likes Received:
    6,093
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Suburban DC
    Why? I agree with much of what you are writing, but a free market is driven by supply and demand. If consumers are unwilling to pay huge prices for gear it would come down in price. Clearly, there is huge amount of demand for higher priced headphones and the manufacturers are getting while the getting is good.

    I think this gets to the crux of the matter of why you, me and many others here are upset. There are marketing forces at work (some label it shilling) that drive demand in our community for high price-lower value gear.

    I’ve tried to combat it to the extent (look in the Ether 2 thread), but again there is a move here and everywhere else to engage MOT and allow some marketing forces to work to keep the lights on.

    Some people care about value, some don’t. Some get caught in gear cycling through FOTM headphones, DACs and amps. If you read enough, you can figure out who these people are. It is entertaining and sometimes I get caught up in the hype trains and band wagons. I just try not to drop a huge amount of money in these endeavors.

    It is your money to do whatever you want. It is sad to read when people have to sell gear because they are overextended and can’t make ends meet, but this is the story with all material things.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2019
  3. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    2,750
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Calgary, Alberta
    Home Page:
    IMO the site overall has sound preferences that many agree with collectively and therefore = correct sound.

    Value gets super extra points, as do some brands. Doesn't mean they're bad, but some are clearly mentioned more routinely as "just buy this cuz it's awesome." Whenever the Yggdrasil isn't as favoured is when things really crack me up.

    Some users post a lot more than others and as a gentleman above mentioned, the perception is more posts = moar better gears, but really it's just one person sharing their preferences and opinion more often.
     
  4. elmoe

    elmoe Friend

    Pyrate Banned
    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2019
    Likes Received:
    956
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    @Gaspasser I'm not discussing the benefits or downfalls of a free market here, but the value vs price choices of companies that need to retain a certain level of legitimacy to be relevant in the long run in the eyes of people who will still be around a decade from now.

    I'm not worried about FOTM people, they'll move on to a different hobby in a year or 5 because ultimately many are more interested in shiny new toys than they are in music and while hi-fi is cool enough, you really ultimately need to be about the music to stick it out in this hobby. That's the difference between guys who spend 5 hours listening to music while the kids are sleeping vs the ones who are playing Fortnite using 4k headphones (and yes, the two aren't mutually exclusive). Ultimately this is wishful thinking but I'd like to still believe that when you create a hifi company you do it out of love for music.
     
  5. mkozlows

    mkozlows Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2015
    Likes Received:
    512
    Trophy Points:
    93
    I'm not going to pay $4K for a headphone anytime soon/ever, but people really need to get past this. I mean, look at the rest of the audio chain -- Yggdrasil is like $2K, and the difference between its sound and a $99 Modi is a lot more subtle than the difference between a great $2K headphone and an HD650, but almost nobody's going around excoriating Schiit for price inflation.

    And yeah, that's because there've always been hyper-expensive DACs and the Yggdrasil is actually a relatively low-priced flagship -- but that's just a historical accident about where the market was, going back to the '90s ('80s?). There's no inherent reason why multi-thousand dollar DACs are sensible but multi-thousand dollar headphones aren't.
     
  6. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

    Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    2,153
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Estonia
    I suppose it's human nature to forgive about flaws when one loves some special attribute about something.
    It's like with people; something ''just clicks'', even when you have noticed many weirdo characteristics about that someone.
    Writing assessments that are translating takes level of selflessness, people skills and experience.
     
  7. ColtMrFire

    ColtMrFire Writes better fan fics than you

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2016
    Likes Received:
    6,226
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    This is pretty much how I feel about it. In world where you can get an HD800 for $600 and HD6x0 for $200, it's hard for me to take any of these new kids on the block seriously with their eye gouging prices.

    I was talking to a friend about the ZMF stuff and he mentioned they are not really worth the price difference over the Senns. It's nice hearing them at meets and stuff (I did like the sound of the Aeolus during the loaner), but there's so many other things I could buy with the price chasm between ZMFs and my 800/600.

    Same with the Focal Clears I auditioned briefly. This goes into a larger point about the insane pricing situation of the modern headphone era. And they only charge that much because.... people will pay.
     
  8. ColtMrFire

    ColtMrFire Writes better fan fics than you

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2016
    Likes Received:
    6,226
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Hmm, I don't think there was anything subtle about the difference between even my old Modi Multibit and my Gungnir Multibit. And the latter I got for $800 used. Considering it's not too far off the Yggdrasil, I think that's a reason people don't go in on Schiit for price gouging. There is a much lower cost solution for 90% of the performance and Gungnir Multibit competes with multi thousand dollar dacs. That's a pretty insane value. So Schiit (rightly) gets alot of leeway here.
     
  9. ColtMrFire

    ColtMrFire Writes better fan fics than you

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2016
    Likes Received:
    6,226
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    This got me thinking. What if people are okay with paying $5k, $6k, $7k, $8k for a "TOTL" headphone? I mean at this point nothing seems out of the realm of possibility, and the hobby only looks to be getting more expensive, with luxury pricing becoming the norm for gear that doesn't have the quality to warrant it. At what point does the pricing become, for lack of a better term, "immoral" and manufacturers start looking shady? I suppose this gets to the heart of the free market. People are "willing" to do alot of stupid shit. Should they be the driving force of a hobby that has become more about chasing unicorns and taking out second mortages to pay for stuff than music?
     
  10. gaspasser

    gaspasser Flatulence Maestro

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2016
    Likes Received:
    6,093
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Suburban DC
    Welcome to ‘Murica, bro. Don’t go looking into sports cars, watches or whatever.
     
  11. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    2,750
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Calgary, Alberta
    Home Page:
    Unless discontinued, used prices are completely irrelevant.
     
  12. Jinxy245

    Jinxy245 Vegan Puss

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2016
    Likes Received:
    5,733
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Montgomery, New York
    I agree to an extent, but it boils down to what's stupid for you isn't necessarily stupid for me.

    I don't think going into the price/performance debate is what m17xr2b was originally talking about, though it is somewhat relevant or at least part of the discussion. Some people don't mind spending extra for what they feel is 'the best' or close enough to it. That's not necessarily a bad thing IMO.

    To quote m17xr2b:

    "I'm seeing this more and more in various posts and recently in ZMF headphones where flaws/downsides in gear is often omitted or played down compared to my own personal experience."

    My answer to that focuses on the last part of that sentence: "compared to my own personal experience". which is where the 'issue' lies I think.

    In the end, it boils down to one thing.

    Be f'ing honest.

    This is how we extrapolate one users experiences into what should be somewhat helpful info for others. What is a glaring problem for one might not be an issue for someone else. That's useful too IMO. Get to know the person giving their opinion & use that as a data point.

    Some are better at describing or even detecting issues, and that is somewhat normal I think. That being said, if you're holding back or glossing over because of some relationship (either real or perceived) with a manufacturer, well then, f**k you. Take a look in the mirror & tell me what you think or STFU.
    EDIT: Obviously this doesn't apply to the less than 1% here that can literally effect sales of a given product and choose to remain silent rather than abuse their power. The silence can speak volumes in these cases.

    Now some are better, or more willing to bash. I'm definitely more in the softie camp, since I can empathize with others that may like a sound sig that I'm not a fan of. I'd be honest in saying it's not my preference, but I wouldn't necessarily trash it unless there are glaring spikes that are downright painful, or pieces of the frequency that are totally absent etc.

    For those that really want to hear more of the bad crap, a separate thread may not be the worst idea.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2019
  13. dark_energy

    dark_energy Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,040
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Forest
    Yes. Otherwise, it is going to be just another cookie game.
     
  14. yvv

    yvv Acquaintance

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2018
    Likes Received:
    88
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    London, UK
    People will pay any amount for a headphone if they feel they gain something in audio and build quality. 5%-10% gain will be enough.

    @Gaspasser's analogy with watches is very interesting. People don't buy them to know the time. It's out of self gratification and to trigger the reward mechanism. Because they can. Headphones could also be considered as luxury items but to sell them marketing blurb is not enough. They have to deliver.

    The most expensive piece of audio equipment I've ever bought was the Meridian 861, an AV preamplifier, cost around $24K back in 1999. The list of innovative features was endless and the sound quality was head and shoulders above anything including some of the high-end stereo DACs of the time. And you didn't have to be an audiophile to know that. When it was temporarily replaced with a TOTL Denon receiver the whole family thought it was broken.

    IMO, to produce a real TOTL audio product requires proper investment and research. Proper material research, not just sticking felt pads in front of the drivers. Cottage industry is not and will never be capable of doing it. They tune products by ear and lend prototypes to influential forum members to get them involved and produce positive vibe.

    Focal could do it, but their main interests are elsewhere. Sennheiser is probably the only company who has everything to push the envelope but every new so called TOTL product sounds worse then the previous one. My guess is their marketing department knows better what brings food on the table and what to invest into.

    Every TOTL I've tried so far has not been even close to the HD6x0 as a whole product, regardless of the price. If they were I would've bought them. Some of them had super high highs, some super low lows. But where is the whole picture?
    Just my 2 cents




    I
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2019
  15. elmoe

    elmoe Friend

    Pyrate Banned
    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2019
    Likes Received:
    956
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    Exactly. A car that has shit performance and costs a fortune, nobody will buy because the vast majority of consumers will be able to tell the difference.

    Watches are irrelevant since it's just bling, nobody cares if it can tell time accurately.

    When you market a pair of headphones as the be all end all and sell them for more than 30 times the price of a tried and true through the decades headphone like the HD650 then some manner of wowing is expected. If not, then your company and products should lose credibility.
     
  16. crenca

    crenca Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    May 26, 2017
    Likes Received:
    3,829
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Southern New Mexico
    This makes sense to me. The one man (or small) shop led by an 'audio savant' (I mean that in a good way...usually... ;)) and lots of passion is not in a position to do fundamental research (even if it is just mixing and matching known materials and knowledge in an overall unique/informed/cohesive way), let alone bring it to market with a price tag that could be considered a "value" compared to an HD650. Economies of scale and all that.

    On ZMF, I have had the Eikon's 10 days now and have been trying to wrap my mind around their chameleon character. Hands described it well with in relation to the Verite here:

    https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/zmf-new-headphones-vérité-and-aeolus.6893/page-22#post-253345

    On one track I think "wow", and on another I think "wish I was listening to my Clears, or even an HD650", and occasionally "that's really veiled/soft/just not right". I have had this same reaction with Zu loudspeakers, and have been told this is par for the course of wideband FR fuckery.

    Some have mentioned that the ZMF's don't suffer from the Sennheiser veil, but is it time to talk about a ZMF veil? I don't have the experience/vocabulary to pin it down myself.
     
  17. BenjaminBore

    BenjaminBore Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    May 23, 2016
    Likes Received:
    2,842
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    London, UK
    It’s a touch of bokeh across the board. Alternatively described as extremely smooth, or blurred. It has a cleanliness to it that seperates it from the usual “veil” term. My feeling is that it was a deliberate and legitamate design choice, even if it was a bit much for me personally out of my system.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2019
  18. dubharmonic

    dubharmonic Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2017
    Likes Received:
    3,032
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Evanston, IL
    Multi-kilo-buck headphones aren’t at all new, the Sony MDR-R10 and the AKG K1000 were sold decades ago. The only thing that’s changed is that the market is bigger, and we consumers have more to choose from. We also have the best yet low cost options.

    I’ve gushed a bit over the ZMF Auteur. I don’t think the reactions here have been soft, they’re deservedly positive. For a long time, I’ve looked for something similar to the HD6X0 that’s flat down to 20 Hz, and I’ve finally found it. I’m stoked! This is an opinionated sound signature, and from what I’ve seen, posts have been honest about that.
     
  19. rott

    rott Secretly hates other millenials - Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,177
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Nation's Capital of failure
    I agree that headphone pricing seems to be getting more absurd, especially for what's considered TOTL audiophile these days. But I don't see that trend changing anytime soon if enough people are willing to pay.

    It also might be different for ZMF, perhaps due to size, who probably won't drop the price like some vendors do for TOTL Focal/Audeze/HiFiMan from time to time.

    I use HD650/600 for listening while at my home computer (amp + DAC), but for dedicated late night listening (quiet room, alcohol of choice) I don't regret springing for the Auteur. It improves on the Senns not necessarily in all technicalities but certainly in listening enjoyment (especially with good recordings) for me.

    Maybe it will take a new product to come along and really revolutionize performance somewhere in the $500 - $1,000 level before TOTL headphone pricing comes back down to Earth. But it will eventually rise back up because that's the nature of "luxury" products such as these. They're not like most consumer electronics which get better AND cheaper every iteration; there are certain qualities that when combined and taken as a whole make it worth it to the consumers who can afford them. It's not something that can necessarily be quantized by measurements and/or technicalities alone. For ZMF specifically, it's a "house sound" that you either enjoy or you don't.

    But it's no Ultrasone.
     
  20. Jerry

    Jerry Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2017
    Likes Received:
    1,042
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Asia
    One thing I realize from this hobby is that pricing has a lot more psychological impact on people than I expected, which will reinforce their confirmation bias. The way the industry takes advantage of people's psychology is sorta like casino. They know what they're doing. Most people are defenseless. I was one of them.
     

Share This Page