BorderPatrol DAC SE

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by k4rstar, Sep 9, 2019.

  1. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    @Psalmanazar
    It's a delta-sigma DAC with a shitty budget chip from the 90s. It cannot sound good. These aren't laser-trimmed IC chips without complex internal logic that usually sound human and alive but lack extension and can sound awesome when someone like Audio Note gets their hands on it.

    Cirrus or AK was always the shitty low cost chip. Even the ESS9038 is pretty bad. The error correction and digital filters for delta-sigma chips matter a shitton. AD1955 was the good one, the Dangerous Convert2 the most praised product with it and guess what? You'd still hate it and it totally sucks compared to good modern products. A 400 dollar DIYaudio TDA1543 DAC takes a dump on it. A 850 dollar Border Patrol sends it to the scrap heap.

    See? I can generalize too to present myself as an authority on things I have never heard. 8)
     
  2. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    When the linearity and distortion measurements are that bad, I already know how certain things, not all things, but certain things are going to sound. This is no different from people who say "I'm out" for a loaner tour after egregious measurements are shown. Besides, I've either DIY'd or heard others DIY the various freakshow approaches before: Vout direct from a chip with cap and no output buffer, no LPF, tube rectification, choke filtering, various TDA1543/41 CDPs, TeraDAC Chameleon that glued a million TDA1543 together, etc. It was all different, sounded good because it was different, but after time, I just realized it sucked. This DAC is so 2005 HF/DIYA. We've moved on, for good reason: 2005 DAC experiments were never true vintage, e.g. PCM63, UltraAnalog, etc.

    My contribution is this: WARNING! WARNING! DANGER WILL ROBINSON.

    One man's freakshow is another man's niche. I'll leave it at that.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
  3. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    I was trying to emphasize that we shouldn't make any particular assumptions about how it sounds, but rather the safe assumption that this will be a niche product. All of this is only in regards to whether we should get it for a loaner.

    I have a TDA1543 DAC myself and actually surprisingly enjoy it. I've heard a few others that weren't half bad. I measured it once, and on seeing results, wiped what I saw from memory.

    It's not about striking the BP DAC down outright, in and of itself, but, again, only a response to whether this would be worth spending SBAF money on for a loaner.

    In that regard, it's absolutely safe to assume it's too niche/risky to warrant spending money on in that regard. I would say that in general for most NOS DACs, unless cheap or promising both on paper and within our community (i.e. newer Metrum stuff, Amethyst was cheap enough, OK on paper, and new Metrum stuff in general had been well received here).

    In regards to measurements specifically, I still wouldn't put tons of weight on them. I am almost positive this will sound nothing like the S19, yet both measure poorly by objective standards.

    It's like assuming the Airist R-2R DAC will sound a certain way because of its distortion profile with high level signals, less than perfect jitter, etc. Can you imagine if we saw measurements first and decided if we should hear it after?

    But even the Airist DAC I'd argue is somewhat niche, in that it sounds kind of like non-oversampling. Not quite, but somewhat. The Modi Multibit is still a much safer bet for 90% of listeners. But at least the Airist is cheap enough that, were we looking at something like that instead, it's much less risky to use funds for a loaner.

    I think you'd get a few interested parties for a loaner, but not enough to warrant using site funds. Gotta remember that we'd have to sell it when finished.
     
  4. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I am 90% certain I know how it sounds (measurements, design, DA chip, others' subjective impressions). Been here before tens and hundreds of times. If I am wrong, I will eat my words, and I have done this. Like twice.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
  5. willsw

    willsw Friend

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    The BP DAC is in a different league than the cheaper 1543 DAC I've heard (that battery-powered French one). It is more dynamic and detailed than any of the MHDT DACs I've compared it to, with stronger and more controlled bass. I haven't spent time comparing it to other DACs. It was fun reading reviewers get mad at each other after John Atkinson requested a second, biased, follow-up review after he did measurements to accompany the initial positive review being published. It's certainly a niche product.

    The real question is: why aren't we buying the $12,000 Computer Audio Design 1543 Mk.II DAC?
     
  6. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    @willsw thanks for your thoughts after actually hearing the DAC, but I'm afraid this product has already been deemed 'not worthy' by the high council based on double standards of measurements and blind extrapolation.

    The moral of the story is this: Buy Schiit
     
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  7. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    There's no double standard.

    This is utter shit for 2019 and even for 1989. (And yes, the Bifrost MB had similar behavior with linearity - not as bad - guess what? I told people to avoid it and was on record complaining about the lack of integration between the low and highs even before the measurements came out.)
    [​IMG]

    And so is this:
    [​IMG]

    And this:
    [​IMG]

    The last two compounded by the fact that JA fudged a few things and drove them into an easy 100k-ohm load, and still got about 0.15% and 0.65% distortion. I've been very clear and consistent about reasonable measurement standards for good gear. I've also been consistent about my dislike for TDA1541, 1543, PCM1704, etc.

    The moral of the story is this: Buy Metrum. Schiit doesn't and won't make NOS DACs.

    You just want to sound cool and be the rebel. Go ahead, but don't push overpriced freakshow garbage that doesn't meet minimum requirements. My bet is that you move on to another DAC in a year or three months.

    And no, the MDHT stuff doesn't exactly set a high bar.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
  8. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    Except the Metrum Onyx which I've heard is barely competitive with the Gungnir Multibit and is twice the price.

    Why don't you let people listen and think for themselves instead of telling them what to buy? BorderPatrol has a return policy without a restocking fee. I see through your bullshit and I don't believe you are being genuine.

    No, I just wanted to create some content and actually discuss new products instead of just the same 4 or 5 DACs all day. I hardly think spending my own money and then sharing an opinion after I've put my ears on something is 'being a rebel'. What's wrong with moving onto another DAC in a year or three months? For some people it's part of the hobby and I am a self admitted gear-head. Does it suddenly make this DAC bad after I've heard a better one? I don't really think so.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
  9. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    There's nothing wrong with constantly changing gear, but this undermines the credibility that you seek because your preferences will be subject to whims or have not matured enough to stabilize. It's like relationship advice from a man-ho. Establish a long term reference, one where the pieces change slowly, and when they change are toward a known direction. Otherwise, you are just another Macedonian Hero, where everything new sounds better than what was before when it really was just different.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
  10. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    And I am always going to call out gear with bad measurements. Bad not meaning something which is actually reasonable like 88db SINAD. But more like 57db or 45db SINAD, which is going to be audible. SBAF and CS before it was founded on measurements and a willingness to draw a line in the sand. Not going to change this now because it would be a double standard to ignore this or gloss it over.
     
  11. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    Great attempt at misdirection but not really valid in my case. I don't expect you to read all my posts but I have a) had long-term references b) distinctly NOT said everything new sounds better than what was before. I fail to see where I've done that.

    I also fail to see where I've tried to seek out credibility or authority. If I cared about that, I would start k4rstar.blogspot.com, get manufacturer loaners instead of paying for stuff, set up adsense and get my own sponsor sidebar. 8) Right now that seems like a better option than posting about any product on this forum that isn't from Massdrop or Schiit though! Would you like me to send you the BorderPatrol DAC so you can pee in it or are you going to keep playing pin the tail on the donkey to try to discredit my humble opinion?
     
  12. fraggler

    fraggler A Happy & Busy Life

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    I don't know about the peeing in it part, but is seems that sending yours to Marv if he will take it might resolve the situation in a way that another thread shutdown won't.
     
  13. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

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    Perhaps no urine need be involved, but I think it'd be cool if purr1n could get ears on this and post non-jpg impressions.

    Even if measurements might indicate that the DAC has surprisingly large errors for a not-a-transducer.

    Edit:
    @fraggler has faster fingers, haha.
     
  14. E_Schaaf

    E_Schaaf MOT: E.T.A Headphones

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    As someone who generally values both flavor (even when it's 'anti-audiophile') and precision in different contexts I do have interest in this DAC despite the awful measurements (I 100% guarantee my Nak 500 measures worse than any of the gear ever discussed on SBAF but I love it nonetheless). Then again, I'm someone who actively enjoys harsh noise music and the sound of hypersaturation. It is important, however, to be clear about the use of language - it'd be hard to call this DAC 'transparent' by any means given what we know about the measurements. But why is transparency the goal?

    Sure, maybe this is not an all-purpose DAC and imparts some heavy-handed coloration. The same could be said of ZMF headphones. But maybe it could be one DAC in a lineup of many in someone's home system - changed for different material the same way some vinyl guys will swap tonearms and carts for different records. Half of the fun of the hobby is trying out a wide range of things and deciding what you like as time goes on, then building a system (or many if you're someone with varied tastes like myself) to achieve that sound. Everything has coloration. There doesn't have to be a singular point of reference.

    I tend to think that building a good system should be goal-oriented - meaning components ought to be selected for the best synergy for whatever sound you're trying to achieve. Not everyone wants a clean and transparent sound. Huge farting subs may be immensely pleasureable in a car sound system if you listen to hip hop and EDM even if they measure and sound like shit according to any modern empirical standards. For me, pleasure and data often go hand-in-hand, but not always. If I had to pick, pleasure wins out. This is a listening hobby after all.
     
  15. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Put up or shut up. It's always been like this. And I have always been fair, even if I thought I would dislike a product beforehand. I mean who knows, JA's measurement set was limited. Maybe it will sound not bad and the data will look better under more realistic use case measurements. Will pay for shipping both ways and 5% customs unless there is a known way to tell the Canadian customs fascists that this item was a return back to the owner.

    Heck, send it to @Hands if you don't want me to possibly pee on it. Tyler is the NOS DAC guy after all. Will cover the costs. Inquiring people want to know.

    @k4rstar: So how did that 12" AlNiCo wide-bander project go? Any measurements?
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
  16. eastboundofnowhere

    eastboundofnowhere Facebook Friend

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    Man, probably get a dislike for this but feels like a a couple of you have valid points but are talking past each other. I’ve lived with this DAC for almost a year and feel no need to upgrade, but have not commented on it as I have no frame of reference other than my turntable setup and a Bifrost MB that I ended up only using for movies.

    Hands, you only live a state away from me. If you would like I can loan you mine and for better or worse someone with more frames of reference could comment on it. As it is I can say I like it a lot, but posting so is just noise on my end.
     
  17. eastboundofnowhere

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    Ha, ha you posted that while I was typing my response...maybe not a terrible idea then
     
  18. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    Did not sound good at all with the popular, electric music I listen to. Sent the drivers back to the manufacturer who gave me a full refund on them. My point is that I didn't need you to tell me how they would sound, I was comfortable trying it for myself given the return policy, to decide if I liked it or not. Also, another great attempt at misdirection to conflate the usefulness of transducer measurements to those of a DAC. You're really good at this. Again, I see straight through your bullshit and I'm not afraid to publicly say it, which I can only assume makes you uncomfortable given your repeated attempts to shit on this thread.

    I'm not interested in turning discussion around this product into a subjectivist vs. objectivist debate. I think it is ridiculous that you can move the goal posts wherever you want to state what measurement results are 'reasonable' and what are 'freakshow'. If you care about how something measures, THIS IS NOT THE DAC FOR YOU. DON'T SPEND MONEY ON IT. That much should be very clear.
     
  19. willsw

    willsw Friend

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    This may sound like a joke question at this point but I'd actually like to know . . . @k4rstar, do you prefer it with the hybrid tube rectifier or straight solid-state? I've never taken the time to try comparing.
     
  20. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I didn't move any goalposts.
    upload_2019-9-11_16-40-9.png

    Everything you have said tells me that you would be better received at HF. I won't deny there is inertia here for accepting new gear beyond a small set of "approved" gear whether they be amps, DACs, etc. Liked or accepted headphones are probably more varied here because their errors are gross and thus more easily quantifiable. But you are absolutely right. I will tell you that this inertia will not change. You will get called out, you will have to prove others wrong, you will have to engage (beyond just posts), you will have to cajole, you will have to write good comparative impressions, if you want others to believe.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019

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