BorderPatrol DAC SE

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by k4rstar, Sep 9, 2019.

  1. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    This is a good plan and totally in the spirit of SBAF. We would comp your shipping costs.

    The BP DAC has been mentioned a few times before. It's likely not going to be in my taste as I am not an NOS or TDA154* fan, but I would like to think that I have reviewed NOS DACs quite fairly. @Hands would be an ideal candidate. He's heard every NOS DAC on the planet, including the TDA154* stuff, and people understand his preferences, where he is coming from, and how is he able to recommend or not recommend to a larger audience with broader or different tastes.
     
  2. jexby

    jexby Posole Prince

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    calling it first, here and now:

    @Hands doesn't waste Daddy time and words on a meh DAC review, and simply posts a real life baby turd photo instead.
     
  3. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    I would be curious to test it. But I don’t have funds to cover return shipping. I’ll give it a fair shake. I don’t care what the measurements look like.

    @purr1n You should know that as I age, I’m less set on NOS. I do have a NOS project I’m working on (cheap little thing) but still go with something like the Modi MB more often than not. (Yes, I am that much closer to joining the old and deaf club as every year goes by.)
     
  4. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Send me a bill for shipping. Both ways.
     
  5. bazelio

    bazelio Friend

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    Featured, in fact.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. direstraitsfan98

    direstraitsfan98 D2Girls v2.0

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    They feature anything on head-fi. There are times when they’re starved for content and will front page a poorly written English review by some Maylasian teenager for a pair of $20 IEMS. It’s a pretty meaningless achievement.
     
  7. Firegon

    Firegon New

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    Sorry to ask, but which MHDT DACs have You compared it with? I'm asking, because I've owned Orchid and it would make it a lot easier for me to understand the signature in such a comparison.
     
  8. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    There is no amount of "sounds good to me" and "you HAVE to hear it" that can save this. This is not some SET spectrum where you have super high H2 and the rest is flat. This much "grass" in a single tone measurement means that multitone will get absolutely swamped with what will sound like noise.

    If you only listen to jazz trios, then it might kinda work, but get this - all of this extra crud will get encrusted with extra harmonics from the amp and transducer.
     
  9. Tachikoma

    Tachikoma Almost "Made"

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    If you're going to throw shade at a whole nationality, at least spell it right.
     
  10. willsw

    willsw Friend

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    The Stockholm V2 and the Pagoda, though I can't remember which was the one I did the more deliberate A-B with. I know it's not very helpful, I'd like to have spent more time making notes but never remembered to find that time. I don't think I can give any more specific commentary except for that little bit I already wrote.

    I have mostly listened to not very complex music on this DAC. Because that's what I like! I've also listened to this almost exclusively on speakers.
     
  11. bazelio

    bazelio Friend

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    It's likely that you're hearing grain and hash, not real detail and dynamics.
     
  12. willsw

    willsw Friend

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    I honestly can't tell if this is sarcastic. I'll assume that it is because that makes more sense.
     
  13. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    @willsw I’m sure this makes a great color box with some music but there are more flexible and more utilitarian warming converters (Burl, SPL, Modi Multibit, old Gungnir Multibit, , bifrost uber, Apogee, Lavry in the lows on da and highs on ad with the saturation settings) and there are ways to add a more “reactive” weight and saturation to your chain with transformer gear and class a pres, mosfets, tubes, and even free dsp plugins. R2R will not get that same clarity to be even be colored with most stuff you can buy and not everyone wants the Schiit sound. You’ll get a distortion with NOS that can’t be dialed in but so much of the sound of these NOS dacs is in the analog design I think because the nos emulation filters and trying to dial in similar distortion characteristics to cleaner converters will not get you there. most people here switch gear so often that such opaque coloration and distortion will make such an acquisition temporary.

    @k4rstar Why would a designer use a poor chip and bad filter For their color dac if you’re superb at analog design? Why not use cheap codec chips or ak like SPL? Those sound great. Clear and present treble? Hell no but who cares. These old chips all suck. You’ll move on soon. The modern chips are mostly fine. I wouldn’t buy the TI hybrid ones and the velvet sound aka because they’re too smoothed over but the other brands are all fine and don’t try for the same smoothing colorations even if Cirrus and Wolfson are V shaped slightly but it sounds good and is way clearer than TI/BB even if it can’t hang with the AD1955 and ESS Sabres. It mathematically works and older chips in newer designs made with modern electronic design software not sounding very clear and old gear not sounding not sounding as clear when recapped is the proof.

    The best ESS designs are superb. Many of them don’t even use the latest chips. It’s all design. Why would someone who is genuinely good enough at electronic use and designing analog audio circuitry use a discontinued budget chip from the 80s? That would be retarded. The AD1955 sounds great but it lacks the clarity of the newer AK and ESS chips. A few of the guys that made it... moved over to ESS and made the Sabres. The best Sabres are actually warm and super detailed without the treble grain of the chifi and whatever the hell Mytek is doing with the bloom tizzy sound now.

    The SPL gear sounds amazing but take it apart and you find AK stereo codec chips in the pro stuff, random ak dacs in the consumer stuff, and njm4589 opamps. They all measure okay to mediocre but they sound wide open, warm, and the treble is fine. They kill chi fi, rme, Focusrite, steinbergs, the Schiit akm stuff, etc in classiness and just plain old sounding great but there are guys who have it way more together (aka they’re better) but none of them give that same wide open, heavy low end and depth.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019
  14. willsw

    willsw Friend

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    @Psalmanazar I don't necessarily disagree. The only thing I've said in this thread is that the BP DAC sounds significantly better than a $100 ebay DAC that uses the same chip, and that it was preferable in certain ways to the MHDT DACs I've heard. I've also stated explicitly that I have not compared the BP DAC to anything except the MHDT.

    I have not and am not going to make any larger statements about different topologies, chipsets, or measurements. I think I'm aware of my limitations in hearing and listening experience, and I try to only write things that I am confident about.

    I like the BP DAC. In my mid-fi system at home, I'd probably be happy with the BP DAC. I'd also probably be happy with a lot of different DACs, even though I like to compare things and decide which I prefer and why. This tendency towards enjoyment even when listening critically is probably why I don't participate in that many discussions here.
     
  15. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I prefer reviews written in Mandalorian.
     
  16. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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  17. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    I mean what you like is what you like but the average guy is probably better off without NOS and shouldn’t even consider buying it. Especially people who just want to drop a g to try it for the flavor and will get rid of it in a month. Which is all of these guys buying and selling gear at the drop of a hat. They should consider cleaner stuff or a much more subtle flavor. Converters can’t be easily be switched in and out like plugins or analog gear hooked up to a patch bay unless someone has some Lynx or RME digital out thing and can route the signal to various converters. But that’s pretty retarded in general for listening purposes, would require multiple word clock cables and so on making it a huge pita for anyone.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019
  18. willsw

    willsw Friend

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    Again, I haven't and continue to not disagree. I reiterated earlier that it is definitely a niche product.

    In my experience talking to people interested in the BP DAC, the crowd seems to skew towards people who have an OK vinyl setup and either an inexpensive DAC they didn't think that much about or a CD player that they've realized isn't giving them enough from their digital collection. The BP DAC can be a good choice for people who are still afraid that all digital is going to be harsh and edgy. If they want to explore other options once they've seen the potential of their digital setup, they will.

    I'd avoid throwing the theoretical "average guy" into this discussion. There are way too many disparate groups that guy could be averaged from. I agree with your statement if this particular guy is a guy who has gotten deep enough into this hobby and lurked enough to decide that they'd like to join SBAF in order to ask questions about where they should go from whatever $100 DAC they started with.
     
  19. eastboundofnowhere

    eastboundofnowhere Facebook Friend

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    Sure thing. Sorry had to work, change diapers, sleep. Won’t be able to get it out until Monday or Tuesday but then no rush on something like this
     
  20. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    After some time to reflect...

    I don't care if people like the sound. I don't care if people say they like the sound. I won't stop people from any of this.

    But honestly, did people really think that I would not point out the serious issues in regards to the distortion as seen the FFTs, the super high Zout (the result of taking the outputs directly from the chip without an output buffer), and the use of what is effectively a 10-12bit DA chip? And the concerns of the DA chip directly driving even some preamp with 15k or 20k pots (nothing those distortion numbers were into a much easier 100k load.)

    When did SBAF suddenly not be about science, reasonable science?
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019

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