Hifiman HE-6SE

Discussion in 'Headphones' started by purr1n, Aug 22, 2018.

  1. E_Schaaf

    E_Schaaf MOT: E.T.A Headphones

    Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Likes Received:
    9,589
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Staten Island, NY
    Home Page:
    IME The HE-6 is deceptive in the sense that you'll get a feeling that the headphones are being driven well until you jump up to a different class of power, at which point going back is hard to do. I felt like my ACA was doing a good job with the HE6 til I plugged them into my GFA-555, which took a very long time to warm up. Now there's no going back.

    Regardless, I suppose if you're happy with the sound at the end of the day, that's what counts. Not too familiar with the HPA4 personally, too rich for my blood.
     
  2. neogeosnk

    neogeosnk Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,882
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Quote from Benchmark engineer John Siau from shit site: "The HPA4 is a scaled down version of the Benchmark AHB2 power amplifier. Both of these amplifiers feature the patented THX AAA(TM) technology that includes feed-forward error correction. This system keeps the amplifier distortion free when heavily loaded with low impedances and/or high output levels. It also prevents the zero-crossing transients that are normally produced by conventional class-AB amplifiers. These zero-crossing transients are normally produced by the crossover transition between the complimentary (push-pull) output devices. Conventional amplifiers use biasing to mitigate some of the crossover distortion, and attempt to remove more of this using feedback. In contrast, the AHB2 and HPA4 take an entirely different approach. The outputs of the Benchmark amplifiers are driven through the crossover region using a supplementary feed-forward amplifier. This supplementary amplifier prevents push-pull crossover transients allowing distortion-free output at low levels (unrivaled first-watt performance) even when driving very low impedances.:

    The AHB2 is distortion free into all rated loads. By "distortion free" I mean that it can be shown that the distortion will never reach the threshold of hearing (0 dB SPL) when driving loudspeakers. If we do the math, we can see that the same is true when driving headphones. Furthermore, the 132 dB SNR of the AHB2 allows it to be used at levels well below the rated power without encountering audible noise. In contrast, most power amplifiers will produce audible noise in a set of headphones (unless the headphones are unusually inefficient). So, the AHB2 will make an excellent headphone amplifier and it can be used with any headphone without producing audible noise or distortion. The risk is that the AHB2 has enough output voltage and power to instantly fry most headphones (not to mention your ears). If an AHB2 is used with headphones, the output of the upstream DAC must be attenuated so that the noise produced by the DAC will not be the limiting factor. An HPA4 line stage can be used for this purpose.

    The AHB2 and HPA4 will sound virtually identical when driving headphones (if the gain staging between the DAC and AHB2 is optimized for headphone use). With either amplifier, there will be no audible noise or distortion, and you get a frequency response that extends from 0.1 Hz to over 200 kHz. The extended frequency response keeps the entire audio band phase accurate. This phase accuracy contributes to a precise 3-dimensional stereo image. Both amplifiers will sound the same but the HPA4 is safer and more convenient when using headphones.

    The Susvara HE6 reaches 83.5 dB at 1mW assuming an impedance of 50 Ohms. At 50 Ohms, 1 mW is 0.224 Vrms. The HPA4 will cleanly deliver 10.8 Vrms into 45 Ohms (see page 50 of the HPA4 manual). 10.8 Vrms is 33.7 dB above 0.224 Vrms. This means that the HPA4 can drive the HE6 to an output level of (83.5 + 33.7) = 117.2 dB SPL. This will be uncomfortably loud.

    The AHB2 can easily produce 28.3 Vrms on each channel when driving the HE6. 28.3 Vrms is 42 dB above 0.224 Vrms. This means that a single AHB2 can drive the HE6 to an ear-splitting output SPL 125.5 dB SPL (if the headphones don't let out smoke first). Add 6 dB if you are using a pair of AHB2 amplifiers."
     
  3. frenchbat

    frenchbat Almost "Made"

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,369
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Mr Siau omits to underline one big difference between both products. Hpa4's max output current is 1,5A (according to their own website), while ahb2's max rated output current is 29A (same source). I'm not sure if that last number is a typo or if it's been bumped lately, because I remember 19A, but whatever it's more than enough for the he6.

    Planars, and inefficient planars like he6 in particular, actually need more current than they need power per se. Else they do make noise of course, but aren't properly "driven". I wouldn't be surprised if 1,5A was borderline enough for the he6. Dunno about the he6se, but it seems as inefficient, so the leap of faith isn't that big.
     
  4. dubharmonic

    dubharmonic Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2017
    Likes Received:
    3,032
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Evanston, IL
    After 4 months, finally connected directly to the speaker terminals! Just before @E_Schaaf 's post I was also thinking that I thought it sounded pretty decent before, but they now have leveled up in everything I have words for. The increase in stage was what took me by surprise the most.

    Now I'm curious what the max output current is on the MHA150. McIntosh's documentation doesn't include it.

    [​IMG]
     
  5. m17xr2b

    m17xr2b Friend

    Pyrate Banned
    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2016
    Likes Received:
    3,988
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    United kingdomland of fish and chips
    After spending a couple of days with these I have to say I'm mostly impressed.

    I felt Stellaris was a better paring than the WA5 so my impressions are based on the DNA amp.

    Build quality is good, not at the level of higher end cans and are simpler in their design and materials but feel sturdy and I can't find any flaws unlike my V1 HEK. This is good enough for me. Comfort is so so, the pads are quite narrow so my ears do touch them. Clamping is on the death grip side.

    Low end is great, too many planars lately have let me down, the extension is superb the lowest of low notes are heard with fantastic impact and authority. Quantity is on the low side but I appreciate the quality more. No bleed whatsoever. The low end does get a bit confused on fast passed music but that might be the amp.

    Mid range is just good, there's a sort of plastic coloration compared to the best mids I've heard, not too intrusive. Slight grain compared to the HD650, very neutral and 8/10 for detail. Somehow I don't get the impression of richness.

    High end is my favourite bit about them, it's rare to hear a can that doesn't mess up this part. A slight spike in the low treble that's rarely a problem, extension is very good and creates enough air to be immersed in. They lack the last bit of refinement and overall sparkle with grace and delicacy.

    Soundstage is a bit above average, nothing to get excited about, separation and imaging are fantastic, each instrument has its own distinct space, there's no fuzziness or overlapping.

    These have perfect balanced from all the cans I've heard, bass to mids to high end is masterfully done, technicalities are 8.5 out of 10 and overall the HE6 is a technical jack of all trades master of none.

    Now, I get the feeling the sound is constricted a bit, like a singer that doesn't have enough breath. Supreme effortlessness is missing.

    I can see these as one of my secondary headphones when I want to hear technicalities and a neutral sound that's punchy and detailed. Ultimately the don't get me too emotionally involved. The first couple of days was the honeymoon period for sure but now I don't feel like using them and reach for my senns instead.

    Still, didn't expect to like them as much as I do, can't hear any flaws to be upset about, maybe amping and I can see why the HE6 has legendary status.
     
  6. m17xr2b

    m17xr2b Friend

    Pyrate Banned
    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2016
    Likes Received:
    3,988
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    United kingdomland of fish and chips
    Sent the HE6se to its next owner. Very cool of HFM to offer this loaner, I wish more companies would do so.

    Since the initial audition I haven't used them at all. They just didn't call me in the way dynamics do. It's a lack of soul in the music, technically worth the price but involvement is just not there for me. HD580/650/BH Crack is my preferred choice over HE6/Stellaris/WA5.
     
  7. dubharmonic

    dubharmonic Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2017
    Likes Received:
    3,032
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Evanston, IL
    The HE6 doesn't call to me every day either, usually that's the Auteur. There are days though that I crave the deep, forceful bass that the HE6 is oh so good at delivering.
     
  8. Elmer Danilovich

    Elmer Danilovich MOT:Earmen, HeadAmp, Bricasti; AKA:MShenay

    Contributor
    Joined:
    May 8, 2018
    Likes Received:
    346
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    In the Oak Forest
    I'll be frank I find these very odd sounding to my ears

    Yes the Bass is quite taut and well detailed but it's almost too forward. I may appreciate it more if the mid range an top end wasn't so odd.

    With vocals it's quite lovely tho intimate but strings sound too abrasive and horns are both honky, have a nice richness and a some what hollow sound? More or less the mid range sounds a bit un even to me, the top end has some emphasis an I feel there's toooo much shimmer on high hats, tizzzzzzy comes to mind.

    Staging is deeper than I would have thought, an they are acceptably detailed all things considered. But I just can't swallow the tonal presentation. Maybe the problem is my back-end [RME ADI 2 - > Ember II {With Noise Nuke}] system but these aren't for me...

    Thankfully I heard the HE 6SE alongside an Ether 2 from a Gungnir Multibit with Moj 2 as Pre Amp into [& Onkyo Digital Source] a First Watt Speaker amp With a Adapter to use the speaker outs,

    [​IMG]

    An from this set up [which I imagine is more than enough power wise] I still felt the HE 6SE was kinda un even. I much preferred the Ether 2 over it. Tho no Ether 2 to compare it with atm. An on an unrelated note this First Watt amp sounded excellent!!!!


    Still I'm happy to see a lot of input on these, I always enjoy reading over your thoughts @ufospls2 tho I can't say I see the appeal of buying these new in a market where HD 800 and Ether 2 an second hand Abyss also exist.

    Maybe I'd feel differently with a better amp but even when that day comes I'll likely pass on getting these. At least until I've heard a modded unit
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2020
  9. cskippy

    cskippy Creamy warmpoo

    Pyrate MZR
    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2015
    Likes Received:
    3,999
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Tempe, Arizona
    I have a feeling the stock pads are doing a major disservice to these headphones. Heck, probably using the old Hifiman Velour pads would be an improvement to the pads that come on HE-6SE.

    I really like MrSpeakers Ether FLOW angled pads for a warmer treble and more relaxed but still excellent listening. Dekoni TH900 perforated and non perforated variants are also good.
     
  10. E_Schaaf

    E_Schaaf MOT: E.T.A Headphones

    Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Likes Received:
    9,589
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Staten Island, NY
    Home Page:
    Briefly compared @neogeosnk 's 6SE to my modded 4-screw at CanJam on one of the Phonitor setups at the Focal booth. Really quite a short comparison (like back and forth for 45 seconds once or twice) but here's what I think I heard (pads were different too) -

    • 6SE is dynamically softer and less incisive on attacks, with a more resounding decay ('rounder' dynamic profile).
    • 6SE has more of a lower-treble push than a modded OG HE6, which is a bit more balanced here. OG HE6 has a good bit more 'air' on top and crispness in the mid-treble though. Both can be problematic depending on the recording.
    • 6SE has a more wobbly midrange response (kind of a U with the higher points in the lower and upper-mids, so slightly shallow in the middle) whereas OG HE6 is generally quite a bit perceptually flatter here.
    • 6SE bass is noticeably less tight but greater in volume than OG HE6.
    • OG HE6 is a bit leaner and has less of a net downslope from top to bottom than 6SE, but is also somehow more engaging in terms of dynamic profile and forwardness in FR spots that are less likely to fatigue.

    Not sure what gains can be made with mods on the 6SE (and some of the tonal differences above might just be attributable to different pads), but I feel I am likely to soon find out. When I have one at home I'll do a more thorough comparison and possibly revise what is said above. That being said, it was clear even in a short comparison that the 6SE sounds about as different from the OG HE6 (4 or even 6-screw) as the re-issue HE5 sounded relative to the OG HE5. That is to say, quite different. Would love to see the internals of the 6SE to see if things were changed beyond what HFM said, which was certainly the case with the 5SE.

    edit - just to clarify, from what I heard briefly, I would take an un-modded 6SE over an unmodded 6-screw or 4-screw in terms of fatigue and listenability, but I suspect the OGs might be more scalable with mods and gear. Won't know for sure until I am hands-on.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
  11. neogeosnk

    neogeosnk Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,882
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    My set has a few mods (felt rings/grillmod/Sundara pad) that I wasn't too happy with. I'll be sending you my he6se soon. Phonitor amp drove them quite nice, that may be my next amp since Rag 2 didn't work out.
     
  12. Elmer Danilovich

    Elmer Danilovich MOT:Earmen, HeadAmp, Bricasti; AKA:MShenay

    Contributor
    Joined:
    May 8, 2018
    Likes Received:
    346
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    In the Oak Forest
    Your likely right, I took your advice on pad swapping for my HE 560 and I really like the results. I appreciate your feedback here



    Soft with a wobbly mid range and a "greater in volume bass" is a good way to describe the problems I have with HE 6SE.

    I am some one who has and some what does like Hifiman Sound. Still own an enjoy my HM901 and HE 560 [though I did do a pad swap within days of purchasing], I'm even tempted to buy a modded HE 4 [Pad swap an grill mods] simply to have as a backup, non the less I suppose it's nice to hear stock 6SE does better than OG 6, it's also nice to have confirmation on how much I won't [an don't like stock HE 6] I only wish this loaner HE 6SE had some pads I could sawp on it... as I'm not able to unmount my HE 560 pads given how difficult a time I had installing them to begin with
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
  13. dubharmonic

    dubharmonic Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2017
    Likes Received:
    3,032
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Evanston, IL
    My 6se came with 2 sets of pads in the box, FocusPads and the Velour https://store.hifiman.com/index.php/velour-earpads.html

    I’ve been using the velours for a while, they calm the highs just as you’d expect, and they lose some air. They’re less fatiguing for longer listening sessions.
     
  14. ufospls2

    ufospls2 Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2017
    Likes Received:
    2,010
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Canada
  15. rrwwss52

    rrwwss52 New

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2018
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    SoCal
    I’m using Dekoni Fenestrated Sheepskin. They work nicely.
     
  16. penguins

    penguins Friend, formerly known as fp627

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2018
    Likes Received:
    3,451
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    SouthernCA
    Ordered yesterday.

    Need an amp recommendation though (I know this is kind of beat to death... but new stuff has also come out since then). I know people generally say 2.5-5W for HE6/se. I don't have a sufficient amp right now. I'm thinking of just getting Aegir + Speaker taps to adapter with a pre-amp. Would like to be able to use with LCD3 as well. Relatively "cheap", quick, easy. Only problem is I can't think of what else I can use a 10-20W speaker amp for. And I'd rather not buy a space heater for my little room.

    Other solution is just to live with HE6se being under powered on Stellaris until I figure out what 100W+ speaker amp I want for Raal SR1a.
     
  17. RobS

    RobS RobS? More like RobDiarrhea.

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2019
    Likes Received:
    1,419
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    .
    "Cheap", quick and easy? Saga and Vidar, if you can get both used. It's what I use to drive my HE-6s. No hissing or hum when hooked up to the speaker taps. Gives you plenty of volume for that visceral slamming sound.
     
  18. neogeosnk

    neogeosnk Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,882
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Yeah the schiit combo sounds good. I'm running a SPL Phonitor X if ur looking into just a headphone amp, find one used for a reasonable price.
     
  19. Jozurr

    Jozurr Facebook Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2015
    Likes Received:
    208
    Trophy Points:
    43
    You can get an anthem integrated 225 for under USD 1K and anthem makes powerful hard hitting amps with clean sound.
     
  20. penguins

    penguins Friend, formerly known as fp627

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2018
    Likes Received:
    3,451
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    SouthernCA
    Thanks for feedback guys.

    Got HE6se today and listened briefly (<30 min) on Stellaris. Not enough power but it's almost there in a way where I can live with it for now.

    Are mods for HE6se going to be largely the same as mods for normal HE6? Hopefully this doesn't come off as too "tell me what I want now" but if these can't be "fixed" I'm going to return these headphones within the given return period. I don't want to keep listening more as IMO they wouldn't pass as new and it would 1) be slightly questionable ethically to try to return as new 2) store may not accept as new. I did read through the HE6 mod thread here already https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/ohhgouramis-he-6-info-and-mods.1726/

    1) Lower highs and middle highs sound disjointed from the rest of the sound and upper highs and some color (overtones residing roughly 10-20k I guess) seem to be missing. Looked at a few different FR charts briefly online and it makes sense - most measure a dip between starting around 1k, flat and down from about 1.5-3k (depending on measurements) and then it's raised to varying degrees from about 5-10k. Drop off after about 10-12k.

    2) Openings in stock ear pads are way too short (vertically) for my ears. Has anyone tried HE6se (or maybe original HE6) with Mr Speakers EFO pads? Those are probably the most comfortable pads of about the same size I've ever used. Any of the ZMF pads would be fine with me too though. Ideally would help fix the above to some degree.

    3) Sounds closed in (not just a small stage per se, but like I'm listening in a small room with sound coming from around said small room) - looks like removing the grill and using a different grill would work here (although would I need other mods?

    4) Open them up and make them more airy up top and slightly more separation all the way through? It's not bad now, but with the other changes I'm envisioning in my head, I can see myself really liking this with the above changes.

    5) Any way to make the headband a tiny bit bigger? It looks like the leather band inside can't get bigger and I have both cups 8 clicks out for size. 9 clicks on 1 side or both sides would be perfect.

    6) Are other mods on HE6 modding thread relevant to 6SE?
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2019

Share This Page